Inspection - Lubricant limitations

[Stan Pope]

My group seems set on limiting lubricants to "dry graphite or 'the white stuff' that BSA sells". Track owners are the most effective lobby for this limitation ... without them, it all falls apart!

Anyone know how to inspect for other specific lubricants that don't fit the limits and would give an advantage over graphite?

Things I've considered:
1. Affidavit by Cub Scout and Assistant.
2. Smell test ... not sure what to smell for, though.
3. Shake test (some graphite better shake out!)

[gpraceman]

Gotta ask the question. Why limit the choices?

[Da Graphite Kid]

Randy, the answer we get from our District Race Chairperson is that the track owners don't want a mess on their track from wet lubricants. Also, there is the issue with the level of technology that is available to all scouts and not just to those who have relatives that are engineers. I've tried to argue for a more open and inventive set of rules but have not been sucessful in three years now. Perhaps when I get my own track and offer to run the District race...

Da Graphite Kid

[gpraceman]

Randy, the answer we get from our District Race Chairperson is that the track owners don't want a mess on their track from wet lubricants. Also, there is the issue with the level of technology that is available to all scouts and not just to those who have relatives that are engineers. I've tried to argue for a more open and inventive set of rules but have not been sucessful in three years now. Perhaps when I get my own track and offer to run the District race...

Da Graphite Kid

I can see about using messy lubricants or excessive lubricant, whether wet or dry, but I think to say that only the use of certain lubricants can be used is unenforceable. How can you really tell that someone has used some spray on lubricant that dried clear and then just did a small puff of graphite at the hub so it looks like graphite is used? Are the race officials going to take the wheels off the cars and inspect the axles and wheel bores with a microscope to make sure they are not using the wrong lubricant? That rule would seems easy to skirt and hard to enforce, so why have it?

[MaxV]

In our race, we just state that excess lubricant must be removed before check-in. So whether liquid is leaking out of the wheels, or the car is covered in graphite dust (this is more typical), the owner must clean off the excess first. By the way, when looking at our track it is obvious that the main thing that fouls the track is graphite!

Certainly some people have access to better lubes, but some people also have access to better tools, painting methods, etc. This will always be the case. So instead of limiting, we try to share information and products. At our race, we give everyone a speed tip booklet, and hold workshops where the tools and supplies are available.

Many people choose to not read the information, or attend the workshops, but I don't think think we should outlaw the use of certain tools, products, and techniques just to cater to those that are not interested.

[Da Graphite Kid]

"That rule would seems easy to skirt and hard to enforce, so why have it?"

RandyL, this gets back to the fact that a scout (and his parents) should be trustworthy. Yes we all know some who are not but bascially you could skirt most of the rules. This last year at District: the four car inspectors were all people who haven't had any pwd car building experience. I volunteered to help but they did not want the parents of any racers to judge cars, which is understandable. One car made it through inspection with the spoked Awana (?) wheels and solid axle on it. This was caught when the car was being loaded on the track to race. The rules were very precise about this point so there should have been no "interpretation" problems. This parent and scout bullied their way through their Pack race with this same set-up even though the rules on this matter were the same.

Sorry to get off subject here,
Da Graphite Kid

By the way Randy (Max-V), I agree with you 100%! As scouts we should "do our best" in all things.

[gpraceman]

RandyL, this gets back to the fact that a scout (and his parents) should be trustworthy. Yes we all know some who are not but bascially you could skirt most of the rules.

This is true for scouts and even the races sponsored by faith-based organizations, like Awana, Royal Rangers and so on, but still there are people that skirt the rules. It is a sad fact.

With the huge variety of lubricants available to the average consumer, locally and over the web, I still cannot see limiting the choices in lubricants.

[Darin McGrew]

That rule would seems easy to skirt and hard to enforce, so why have it?

RandyL, this gets back to the fact that a scout (and his parents) should be trustworthy.

My college honor code had two key parts: the students were required not to cheat, and the instructors were required not to create situations that created undue temptation to cheat. (An example of the latter would be a take-home test due a week later, where the students are allowed to work on it only 4 hours total during that week.)

To me, requiring only certain lubricants is getting too close to a violation of the "instructors honor code". There is no practical way to enforce it, and it serves no good purpose that I can see.

If messes are the problem, then just ban anything that creates a mess (drippy wet lubricant, clouds of excess dry lubricant, sticky paint, trails of confetti, etc.).

[Darin McGrew]

My group seems set on limiting lubricants to "dry graphite or 'the white stuff' that BSA sells".

I've already sounded off against this rule, but assuming you're stuck with it, here are some comments on the inspection techniques you've considered.

1. Affidavit by Cub Scout and Assistant.

It seems like a heavy-weight solution, but it would make more sense if you included all the rules in the affidavit, rather than just the lubricant rule.

2. Smell test ... not sure what to smell for, though.

Well, WD-40 has a smell. So do some other lubricants. But many are odorless. And many adhesives, paints, etc. have similar smells if they haven't cured completely.

3. Shake test (some graphite better shake out!)

What if they're using "the white stuff that BSA sells"? What if they made an effort to break in their wheels, so there isn't enough excess graphite left to shake out?

Another option might be to require everyone to mount their wheels and axles at a supervised workshop just before registration, and to watch them lubricate the wheels with approved lubricants before they mount them. But this effectively prevents fine-tuning the axle alignment.

[Stan Pope]

I've already sounded off against this rule, but assuming you're stuck with it, here are some comments on the inspection techniques you've considered.

Ya, that is kinda what I expected... The rule is virtually useless unless I can identify an espeditious inspection procedure.

An affidavit??? Those who would follow the rules should be offended, those who would not wouldn't care, anyway!

We will wrestle with the issue again this year.

[Wes]

For my Grand Prix racing pals,I let slip my "secret" lubrication potion (promise not to tell anybody??): super glue and sand. It yields spectacular results.

[ABoelow]

Why do we have to question the rules?, for what ever reason they want them there, they are there. Isn't the derby suppose to be for the boys anyhow? How many 7-10 year olds out there do you know, that have any clue on what sort of lubricant to use. Lets focus on what we are really doing this for anyhow guys.....

[Stan Pope]

Why do we have to question the rules?, for what ever reason they want them there, they are there. Isn't the derby suppose to be for the boys anyhow? How many 7-10 year olds out there do you know, that have any clue on what sort of lubricant to use. Lets focus on what we are really doing this for anyhow guys.....

Hello, AB! Welcome to the fray! Hope you enjoy the participation.

I'm not sure where your comment is coming from, AB. The question raised at the start of this thread ask for workable inspection procedure based what the rules say. (The reason for the rule was offered to stave off discussion of whether the rule itself was a good one.) My committee writes the rules for our district races and provides the inspection procedure used to verify adherence by participants. I asked the group for help because I was not satisfied that our inspection procedure was working as well as it should.

Around here, we expect our Cub Scouts to team up with a parent and to learn from the parent, but definitely to be the primary builder, and not to just watch the parent build the car! Hopefully, what he learns is both correct and rule-abiding, though, occassionally I've observed, this is a vain hope.

Most of the time, we can observe a determined effort to work within the rules and to build a fast car. The problem is that performance often peaks at the edge of the rules! Careful inspection protects the many who stay within the rules from the few who would stray beyond the boundaries!

So, with this as background, can you help me?

[ABoelow]

I guess I am just going on the what I see year after year that this has turned into the fathers testostorne fest. We have gone as far as having 2 to 3 Pw clinics and you must make your car there. This may seem extreme but when you here the boys saying "Did you see how cool my Dad's car is this year" I just looses something. I think the teaming up is great for ages Tiger to early Bear but the older boys should in my oppion be doing this preety much on there own. We have alot of parents that you don't even see all year untill the Derby, It's the boy's working so hard ALL the glory should be theirs. As far as is it a good rule, why not like I stated earlier there isn't one boy out there that knows about lubricants and Pw should be fun. A little competion is ok, but how far do you take it?

[Da Graphite Kid]

ABoeLow,
Your post struck a sensitive nerve in me and I'm sure many others.

Maybe your Cub Pack needs to have a Father's Race and/or All Comer's Race. This would allow the "testostorne fest" you spoke of while still allowing the boys to get help in building their own pinewood derby cars. I have found a lot of satisfaction in building my own pwd car while my sons have built theirs.

I agree that at a Webelos (4th and 5th grade) level that a boy should have developed the skills he needs to build a competitive pwd car. In my house/shop this is the rule for my sons and we will adhere to it. I have not and will not build any part of my sons pwd cars after they were a Bear Cub. I am allowed to provide information and demonstrate techniques (on my own pwd cars) and that is it. Both of my sons started building their cars as Tiger Cubs and so have three years of experience under their belts by the time they are Webelos. It would be nice if this was one of the rules but enforcing it would be impossible as is inspecting for this (the reason behind this tread was to find a way to more effectively inspect for adherance to another rule: "Anyone know how to inspect for other specific lubricants that don't fit the limits and would give an advantage over graphite?"). Besides, not all Cub Scouts start out as Tiger Cubs. Right now five of the eight Webelos in our Pack that have never built a pwd car before as this is their first year in the Cub Scouts. This rule would be vastly unfair to them and others.

As a part of my son's pinewood building team, I feel that it is my responsibility to seek out and test better/easier ways to build a faster pinewood derby car (Cub Scout Motto: "Do Your Best"). Is my son allowed to rome the internet looking for information on this? No way, that would be irresponsible of me as a parent to allow him to do so unmonitored. Does he sometimes read the posts here on Derby Talk? Yes, when his home work and all are completed. Does he always do the things that we discuss to make his pwd car go faster? Nope, he does not follow blindly - he expects reasons and demonstrations as to why something will or will not work. Does he understand all of the underlying physics that allow a pwd car to travel down the track faster than anyone else's? No, but he does have to understand the basic reasons for any modification or change that he makes (I do not allow otherwise). Have my sons had an unfair advantage due to their father's preoccupation with pwd racing? No, every year we invite other parent-son teams over to use our tools and what we have learned to build a faster-better looking pwd car. I have also provide printed copies of our pwd car building notes on the same to all who have wanted them for the last three years now.

My opinion here: you will never do away with people who cheat or fathers who completely build their son's pwd cars. All you can do is inspect for adherance to the rules and ask the boy if he had a part in building his pwd car. If a parent wants to teach their child to break rules and not allow them to learn skills in working with their hands than their is nothing you can do to prevent this.

Yes pinewood derby should be fun and competitive (side panel of BSA Pinewood Derby Kit box states: "Promotes Sportsmanship, Craftsmanship, Competition").

Sorry for the rant guys. I gotta go now; Pinewood Derby Times, Volume 3, Issue 6 just arrived and I just need to read it...

Da Graphite Kid