How to spot liquid lube (again)... please keep on topic?

[gpraceman]

I take this to mean you have no suggestion on how to properly inspect for liquid lube without going nuts with a post-race teardown?

You can use an eye loop or magnifying glass to look for parts of the wheel and car body that look wet. Though, a smart racer will wipe of any external traces, so that may not tell you anything.

You could try to stuff a thin strip of tissue paper between the axle and wheel bore and see if it comes out wet. Though, that would probably not be easy to do and may introduce dust or fibers that would slow the car down, so that is not a good option. Not to mention that it would add a lot of time to check-in.

Other than that, you can use a mass spectrometer or electron microscope

And for that matter I am in a position to have influence on the rules as our Pack is running the District race.

Then I would recommend that you push to have the rule changed. If not for this year, then for next year.

[Teeeman]

The tissue inspection is worrisome for the reasons you state... I am hoping for something that involves only visual, i.e. a blacklight (but I doubt that would make any difference).

Guess there really isn't an easy way.

Plan to just tell the judges to look for oil IF they cannot quickly spot graphite residue.
If no residue, and oil is spotted... then ask the car's owner or rep to be honest and clarify the lube used.

No reason we can't change the rules or at least clarify that we'll be looking for this for "this year" since we don't race until February (which is technically next year, hahahah!).


Thanks for the help guys!


-Terry

[RMoose]

A few ideas come to mind, not sure if they are any better than what has already been said, but here goes:

1) Don't worry about it, do your best to spot obivous violations and live with the chance someone is slipping something past you. Lots of rules governing pinecar racing are hard to inspect for. For example, how about "the child will assist with the building of the car" not too easy to inspect for that on race day!

2) Prior to raceday host some workshops and reinforce the rules. Some folks aren't convinced alternate lubes are really better than graphite anyway. Get a really good graphite lube and talk it up before the race. Make it the hot new lube to have. Who knows, those predisposed might just believe you. Seriously, workshops do give you a chance to help those lacking knowledge who just might show up with an unlubed car.

3) On a previous post here, whose location I can't remember now, someone mentioned that as part of their pre-race inspection each car received a fresh squirt of graphite. This would be a minor problem for a graphite-lubed car, maybe an improvement for a car with no lube, but the kiss of death to a thin-film lubed car. Maybe not ideal, but sounds better than tearing cars down after the race!

4) Keep working on those rules so in the future this is one worry you don't have to deal with!

Good luck at the races!

[Gravity_Geezer]

If the liquid is applied properly it will be nearly impossible to detect. So I guess this falls under the unenforceable rule. Why have an unenforceable rule?

As far as looking for evidence of power and asking for a re-lube at inspection this is not valid either.

When the BSA came out with the teflon our pack went with a teflon only rule. From our testing the teflon was worse than nothing at all. So my son and I opted for no lubricant.

There was a good natured fellow offering to lube cars with teflon that had been determined to be using graphite and he built quite a line of contestants taking him up on the offer.

My son and I opted not to take him up on the offer and won our respective events. Was this an unfair advantage? No everyone had the opportunity to test their cars as we did.

[Teeeman]

We went with visual inspect for graphite, if none spotted, simply ask...

… we opted to state our rules clearly regardless of enforceability… it will deter some as they don’t know what we can and cannot inspect for…

… our Cubmaster is still interested in a post-race tear down of top cars.

We talked and I pushed hard for no tear downs… we agreed, I think, to a tear-down at District being only after all competition is completed and ONLY if there is a protest against a car that can not be settled in any other way (hopefully this will NEVER happen).

In the event of “pulling a wheel” I will let the car owner do it… or the Cubmaster… I’m not going to yank a wheel off any kid’s car.

I have a friend who has modified some plastic (cheap) calipers for us so they can be used (once set with precision calipers and locked) as a “no go” gauge for wheel tread thickness. Other dims will be inspected, if necessary with non-modified plastic calipers that are marked from precision calipers for critical absolute max and min dimensions we got added to the rules this year.

The point is this: Power to the judges, used with discretion. I think we will be able to enforce our rules quite strongly now… if we do DQ folks at District, and I hope we do NOT, it will be a wake up call to stick to the rules.

And the new rules changes are very, very thorough. It will be very difficult to “find a hole” and exploit this time around.

A lot of the “CNC Lathe Required” wheel mods are clearly outlawed. We wanted to keep this “do-able” for 10 year olds and likewise heavily discourage the use of aftermarket prep wheels as that has always been against our rules (axles too, much less bought cars).

Added some strong verbiage on the whole aftermarket thing in general. We made it clear that the cub/dad team can modify what comes out of a BSA box within the rules so long as they do the work… with specialty tools if they like… with bought guildebooks or any other form of advice… but NO BOUGHT MODIFIED PARTS or CARS. Period. No exceptions, no “levels of mod allowable”… just don’t do it.

I was cornered into allowing pre-cut bodies so long as they are sufficiently modified from stock not to resemble “outta the box” appearance (and they must be pine).

We also defined what is required to constitute a “pine built body”.

And much more.

-Terry

[Mr. Slick]

Could you post the rules that you have?

They sound like something I am attempting to get done in the council here.

[SpinDoctor]

Here is the short version of our rules. There is a 5 page detailed version that also describe how the race will be run. I'll be more than happy to email it to you if you want it.

1. The car weight shall not exceed 5.0 ounces. The official race scale shall be considered final.
2. The overall length of the car shall not exceed 7 inches.
3. The overall width of the car shall not exceed 2 ¾ inches.
4. The car must have 1 ¾” clearance between the wheels. This is the width of the track the car will straddle.
5. The car must have 3/8” clearance underneath the body. Maximum ½” clearance at starting post (District rule).
6. Wheelbase may not exceed 4 ¾” (District Competition requires wheelbase of 4 3/8”)
7. Maximum height is 6”.
8. The wood provided in the kit must be used. The block may be shaped any way that is desired. Precut blocks from hobby stores or the internet are not allowed.
9. Decorations and accessories may be added, as long as these details do not exceed the maximum length, width, and weight specifications.
10. The wheels supplied with the kit or from the Cub Scout Pinewood Derby Axles & Wheels kit must be used. The wheels may not be cut, drilled, beveled or rounded. You may remove the seam from the wheels, as long as the shape of the wheel is not altered.
11. The axles supplied with the kit or from the Cub Scout Pinewood Derby Axles & Wheels kit must be used. They may be polished or lubricated with dry (graphite) lubricant only. No machined or grooved speed axles from hobby stores or the internet allowed.
12. Wheel bearings, washers or bushings are prohibited.

13. The car must not ride on any type of springs.
14. The car must be freewheeling, with no starting devices.
15. No loose material of any kind, may be used. The car body may have no moving parts.
16. ALL entries MUST be new cars.
17.
18.


• .
• If, during a race, a car leaves the track without interfering with its opponent, it shall be considered to have ended its heat at that point.
• If a car leaves its lane, at his sole discretion, the track chairman may inspect the track and, if a track fault is found which probably caused the initial violation, the track chairman may order the race to be rerun after the track is repaired.
• If, during a race, a car leaves its lane and, in so doing, interferes with another racer, then the race will be rerun.
• If, during a race, no car reaches the finish line on the track, the car which went the farthest in its lane shall be declared as the heat winner.
• Only one car may be registered by any person in the Pinewood Derby.




Car Specifications
Width: Max 2 ¾”, Min 1 ¾”
Length: Max 7”, Min

[Stan Pope]

If, during a race, a car leaves the track without interfering with its opponent, it shall be considered to have ended its heat at that point.

If, during a race, a car leaves its lane and, in so doing, interferes with another racer, then the race will be rerun.

These two rules need to be reviewed. They don't go well together. The second appears to say that if the car commits a more grievous offense but gets to race again rather than ending his heat at the point he left his lane.

[sporty]

Thats why I have always felt,

(in regards to Stans Post)

That having them get a test run on the track, Can help prevent or make aware a issue with a car, before or during inspection.

Due to after the car passes inspection, the car goes to the secured waiting area. Not to be touched.

I feel this helps in two ways.

One it allows the car owner to get a chance to correct it the problem, prior to the car being impounded.

2- it also lets people know, including the car owner, that there is a issue with the car.

Aside from being placed on the track wrong.

and keep in mind, if alot of cars are jumping the track. The issue may be the track or a track lane on the track.

I have seen this before, where a lane on the track was bad and several cars had a jumping problem. Most of the ones that ran on that lane.

This helps also to not use the lane, to be fair to the racers.


That is the down fall to not allowing the car builders to test the car first on the track.

Allowing a test run, can give the car builder time to resolve the issue. Or if it is a track problem adjusting accordingly to make it fair for everyone who races.

Sporty

[Cory]

If, during a race, a car leaves the track without interfering with its opponent, it shall be considered to have ended its heat at that point.

If, during a race, a car leaves its lane and, in so doing, interferes with another racer, then the race will be rerun.

These two rules need to be reviewed. They don't go well together. The second appears to say that if the car commits a more grievous offense but gets to race again rather than ending his heat at the point he left his lane.

I'm not sure either "offense" is necessarily grevious at all. In my experience many, if not most, fly-offs are not the fault of a car. Sometimes they're caused by track flaws. Sometimes they're caused by debris left behind after a prior race, which is not something for which you would ever test on pre-race trial/test runs.

Unless you're reasonably certain of the cause, why would you penalize a racer?

[SpinDoctor]

If, during a race, a car leaves the track without interfering with its opponent, it shall be considered to have ended its heat at that point.

If, during a race, a car leaves its lane and, in so doing, interferes with another racer, then the race will be rerun.

These two rules need to be reviewed. They don't go well together. The second appears to say that if the car commits a more grievous offense but gets to race again rather than ending his heat at the point he left his lane.

I will look at it closer. I do believe in the full rules we apply one grace restart(if it is not there I will add it). The goal is to avoid penalizing the scouts.

If his car falls off no fault of the track (debri etc.) Then it would be unfair to penalize the other 5 scouts because of a unstable design (again one grace event) kids to let him race again and alter scores.

On the other hand if the car contacts another car, the race is reran (unless the same car has already left its lane before -- I'll make sure this in there too). Who is to say that his car would not have recovered and stayed on the track if the second car did not contact it, so he deserves the benfit.


Thanks for your thourough review, as we all want to keep it fun and fair. Luckly in the past 6 years we have not had any problems and only had to disqualify 1 car.

[SpinDoctor]

These two rules need to be reviewed. They don't go well together. The second appears to say that if the car commits a more grievous offense but gets to race again rather than ending his heat at the point he left his lane.

I'm not sure either "offense" is necessarily grevious at all. In my experience many, if not most, fly-offs are not the fault of a car. Sometimes they're caused by track flaws. Sometimes they're caused by debris left behind after a prior race, which is not something for which you would ever test on pre-race trial/test runs.

Unless you're reasonably certain of the cause, why would you penalize a racer?

Exactly. last year a small piece of debri was on one lane. I had observed the car do a wheelie. I found a small piece of styrophome on the track. I picked it up and we reran the heat.

Between each group we sweep the track make sure it is as clean as possible.

[gpraceman]

So what was the topic of this thread? Oh yeah, spotting liquid lube...

[Stan Pope]

Cory, that is a different aspect of the rule, and is covered in determination of track fault. I see cars leaving their lane most frequently (at district events) when the car is designed "on the ragged edge of stability." Such a car demands more smoothness than tracks can provide. Then it is in the track official's hands as to "track fault" or "car fault." Fortunately, I don't have to make that call.

However, my concern is that the two rules are inconsistent in penalizing car fault. The case in which lesser damage is inflicted on others is penalized more severly. Either in both cases the offending car should participate in rerun or in neither case. If neither, then its progress in the heat should be marked at the point it left its lane. The reason, in my mind, for distinuishing the cases is whether the "interfered with" car had his heat result changed with respect to other participants in the heat.

The rules have a slight difference, also, in "what is being left." In one, the car leaves "the track" and in the other the car leaves "its lane." I don't think that this is intended to mean something different, but, rather, that the terms are used synonymously. Howver, maybe there is a situation in which the distinction is useful ... A car is leading and just before reaching the finish line its front end hops off to the side, but the rear stays in place and the car slides across the finish line first by a car length! There was no interference, and at least part of the car did finish in its lane. Had the car's front end hopped the other direction and was struck by an adjacent car before reaching the finish line, then there would be interference. Anyway, the concept of "leaving one's lane" is not clear cut. I think that some work is needed to make the rules actually say what is meant.

[Stan Pope]

So what was the topic of this thread? Oh yeah, spotting liquid lube...

Ummm ... Right!!! And we are straying from the topic.