Pin height controversy at Council - suggestions to resolve?

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Go Bubba Go
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Pin height controversy at Council - suggestions to resolve?

Post by Go Bubba Go »

At an upcoming Council Pinewood Committee meeting (I just joined) I believe we will be discussing an issue that created minor (minor only thanks to the behavior of the boy and father involved) controversy at last year's races, and attempting to determine how we avoid a repeat of the issue this year.

Apparently one of the tracks that was "volunteered" for use at the Council races last year had starting pins that were substantially shorter than the typical pins (whether they came that way or were modified, I do not know). How much shorter, I am not sure (I apologize, I heard this all "after the fact" and apparently those involved did not have their rulers out, or at least did not pass on the specifics).

So a poor boy shows up with an apparently well designed Pack winner that has a barge nose on the front which slides up over the top of the "unusually short" starting pin. The pin would hold the car back, but with a bit of the nose crossing the "vertical plane" behind the pin, so to speak. Enter rule 13 from our Council rules:

13. Front Edge: The front edge of the car must rest against the starting peg on the track so that the entire car is behind the peg. Editorial comment: Note the lack of height description of the starting peg.

Apparently the boy, his father, and the officials involved did not consider (or could not come up with on short notice) any quick alterations to the front end of the car (or the pins) to restore compliance with rule 13, so the boy was told (again I am getting this third hand) that in order to pass inspection he would have to run his car backwards! :shock: :x :wall: :doh:

You can guess the result, an embarrassingly poor showing.

My first thought is what a shame. The boy and his father apparently did not question the ruling and did not make a big "stink" of the backwards race, I am not sure I would have been as even tempered about the issue as they apparently were (something for me to work on, I suppose...)

My second thought (back on point) is that rule 13 needs to be better defined i.e. it needs to describe the starting peg in minimum height dimensions, similar to the 3/8" vertical clearance rule (ours says 3/8", it describes the required clearance in specific, measurable, enforceable terms). If one wants to get creative and use a barge nose, curved nose, cheater bar, whatever, one should be able to know and understand the allowable limits.

Question 1: Is specifying the minimum starting peg height (or reflecting such in the design limits for the front of the car) a step in the right direction? Or am I suggesting a fix in the "wrong direction"?

Question 2: If so, what height? My first thought is to put a set of wheels and axles into a "fresh from the box" (no alterations) block and measure to the height of the block. I believe most pegs I have seen are this height or better.

It may be that the boy in question (sorry to repeat myself again, but this was all 3rd hand) had an unusually high nosed design that would not have met this criteria, I do not know. But for the sake of the boys going forward I believe they need to know specifically what the requirements are, and it would seem that either a standard pin height (if there is one) or "top of unaltered block" dimension would be appropriate.
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Stan Pope
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Re: Pin height controversy at Council - suggestions to resol

Post by Stan Pope »

Clear definition of the car standards and the racing environment is appropriate.

I took a "middle of the road" approach to this a few years ago. The local district rules specify a 1" peg height (above the racing surface) as a max for cars, irrespective of what the tracks have, and a min for tracks. The reasoning was that with barge noses, the operation of the starting gate can affect race results. A 1" high barge nose gives a minimal advantage, but still allows for a lot of creativity in the car design.

Inspection tools have pins that determine car's pass-fail. Tracks are required to have pins at least that high.

Turns out 1" was a good choice one year because one of the borrowed tracks had pins just that high!

Your council's situation was handled poorly, I think. Faced with a similar situation here, a bent paper clip and a bit of weight rasping was sufficient to transform the bandit into a legal car!
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Darin McGrew
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Re: Pin height controversy at Council - suggestions to resol

Post by Darin McGrew »

Go Bubba Go wrote:Question 1: Is specifying the minimum starting peg height (or reflecting such in the design limits for the front of the car) a step in the right direction? Or am I suggesting a fix in the "wrong direction"?
It's definitely a step in the right direction. The weigh-in is a bad time for surprises like this.
Go Bubba Go wrote:Question 2: If so, what height? My first thought is to put a set of wheels and axles into a "fresh from the box" (no alterations) block and measure to the height of the block. I believe most pegs I have seen are this height or better.
That was our approach. We designed our starting pins to be that high, and then specified that height as the limit. (Actually, the raw block is just under 2", the pins are just over 2", and we specify 2" as the limit.) This measurement is just one of several in our "must fit our track" section.
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Re: Pin height controversy at Council - suggestions to resol

Post by Mr. Slick »

Our Council, and hence our district use the following:

The front end may be no more than 1/4 inch above the axle line. It must clear the ground by at least 3/8 inch at the guide rail(s).



This allows for some style undercutting but not a large amount.

This dimension is from the days of the hand operated starting gates and so they had too keep every one's cars in a close range of height for the starting pins.
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Re: Pin height controversy at Council - suggestions to resol

Post by festiva91 »

What height are the pins on Best Track or Piantedosi Oars tracks? Sounds like a good option to go just a little bit higher than the max height of a car or at least the same height.
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Re: Pin height controversy at Council - suggestions to resol

Post by gpraceman »

festiva91 wrote:What height are the pins on Best Track or Piantedosi Oars tracks? Sounds like a good option to go just a little bit higher than the max height of a car or at least the same height.
The max height, listed on most rules that I have seen, is 3".

The BSA block (when on wheels) is about 1-3/4" high. Block size does vary depending on the source (our Awana blocks are a bit taller than the BSA ones).

The pin height on the Piantedosi aluminum track is about 1-1/2". The Best Track pins are probably about the same, but that should be confirmed.

If that is the case, I'd go with no more than 1-1/4" nose limit to give a bit of margin.
Mr Slick wrote:The front end may be no more than 1/4 inch above the axle line.
IMO, that is too restrictive. It really cuts down the design posibilties.
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Go Bubba Go
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Re: Pin height controversy at Council - suggestions to resol

Post by Go Bubba Go »

gpraceman wrote:
festiva91 wrote:What height are the pins on Best Track or Piantedosi Oars tracks? Sounds like a good option to go just a little bit higher than the max height of a car or at least the same height.
The max height, listed on most rules that I have seen, is 3".

The BSA block (when on wheels) is about 1-3/4" high. Block size does vary depending on the source (our Awana blocks are a bit taller than the BSA ones).

The pin height on the Piantedosi aluminum track is about 1-1/2". The Best Track pins are probably about the same, but that should be confirmed.

If that is the case, I'd go with no more than 1-1/4" nose limit to give a bit of margin.
I'm thinking somewhere in that 1-1/4" neighborhood, following a similar line of reasoning to yours above. At this year's Council races we are going to measure the pins for all the tracks that are "volunteered" to ensure we set a height that will work for all tracks.
gpraceman wrote:
Mr Slick wrote:The front end may be no more than 1/4 inch above the axle line.
IMO, that is too restrictive. It really cuts down the design possibilities.
I agree. Another baby thrown out with the bathwater. There are some very nice designs I have seen (some pics, some in person) including Pirate Ships, Bananas, etc. that have both front and back end "raised". Neither of my boys cars this year are like that, but I wouldn't want to put the kibosh on anyone else's ideas.
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Re: Pin height controversy at Council - suggestions to resol

Post by Mr. Slick »

Regarding the 1/4" limit, I also greatly dislike it/am not fond of it.

The height limit is an old part of the council rules and they haven't changed theirs so I feel the need to state the rule. . . my actual enforcement at the Pack or District level is another question. :)
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Re: Pin height controversy at Council - suggestions to resol

Post by OCTom »

My son's car last year had the raised nose in the form of a snake head on a thin neck coming off the main body. It looked very cool, got a great start and took the design award at district. It would have failed the 1/4" rule which would have been a shame.

Our pack purchased a new Piantedosi aluminum track this year. With the new spring loaded start gate, the fast start was minimized. Time to redesign.

Tracks should all have a minimum pin height and a start gate that works the same everytime. Our old track the gate was pulled down manually which caused great variations in the start.
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