Winners of ultimate race has Axle inspections

Discussions on race planning, preparations and how to run a "fair" and fun race.
Post Reply
User avatar
MathGuy
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 178
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:33 am
Location: NW burb of Chicago

Winners of ultimate race has Axle inspections

Post by MathGuy »

I know our council does not do this, but they should.

The ultimate winners are subject to axle and wheels inspections to make sure the axles conformed to the racing guidelines for our council races. If everyone at the "Pack Level" through the "council level" knows that if you race with illegal, and win, you are subject to being exposed as a cheat.
Obviously, you don't want to spoil a car at inspection, or after a pack race, if that car is going to go on to race at higher district or council race.

But at the point where the races have ended, but before the final trophy has been awarded, the winning cars should be subject to an axle inspection. The inspection criteria need to be clear and so that cheats are discouraged, but ugly situations are avoided. (IE an over zealous inspector.)

A pure honor system, actually encourages cheating in a way.
Not saying one would cheat, but if you "think" everyone else is bending the rules, then one is more inclined to do what others are doing, but If you know that cheaters can't prosper, then you aren't tempted to cheat just to be competitive, because you know that rules are being inforced. Yes some of us would never cheat regardless of if the rules are inforcable or not. But not everyone thinks the same.
Fun for one, Fun for all.
Rob D
User avatar
Darin McGrew
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1825
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:23 pm
Location: Knoxville, TN
Contact:

Re: Winners of ultimate race has Axle inspections

Post by Darin McGrew »

MathGuy wrote:The ultimate winners are subject to axle and wheels inspections to make sure the axles conformed to the racing guidelines for our council races.
What sort of racing guidelines do you have that you can't inspect for at registration time?
User avatar
MathGuy
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 178
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:33 am
Location: NW burb of Chicago

Re: Winners of ultimate race has Axle inspections

Post by MathGuy »

"the axle may not be bushed, sleeved, lined, or otherwise modified to change the basic wheel-to-axle interface other than the application of a non-permanent spray-on, brushed-on, or dusted lubrication compound. Bushing, sleeves, permanent coatings, thrust washers, and eclosed axle caps (hub caps) are prohibited. Axles may not be polished or machined."
Axles may not be polished or machined.

Talk about a vague and unenforceable rule at check in.
Fun for one, Fun for all.
Rob D
User avatar
Da Graphite Kid
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 327
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2003 6:29 pm
Location: Eufaula, AL.

Re: Winners of ultimate race has Axle inspections

Post by Da Graphite Kid »

Don't forget thin film liquid lubricants (NyOill II).
I'm torn both ways about this type of post race inspection...

Da Graphite Kid
User avatar
Stan Pope
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 6856
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:01 pm
Location: Morton, Illinois
Contact:

Re: Winners of ultimate race has Axle inspections

Post by Stan Pope »

MathGuy wrote:Axles may not be polished or machined.

Talk about a vague and unenforceable rule at check in.
Grrr? Polishing is so easy and an opportunity to teach a useful skill. It is silly (IMHO) to prohibit it.

Machining, such as using a file to remove the burr from a spining axle is also easy and valuable. Likewise, a silly prohibition.

Other machining adds little (if any) to the finished product, unless one is cutting a wide groove with the intent to lay an compressible bushing in the groove and let the bushing expansion lock it into the bore. But this way over the edge of the rules. The key violation would be reducing the bore diameter with a bushing!
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
User avatar
Darin McGrew
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1825
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:23 pm
Location: Knoxville, TN
Contact:

Re: Winners of ultimate race has Axle inspections

Post by Darin McGrew »

MathGuy wrote:Axles may not be polished or machined.
Stan Pope wrote:Grrr? Polishing is so easy and an opportunity to teach a useful skill. It is silly (IMHO) to prohibit it.
Not to mention the possibility that the axles might be "polished" during the break-in period, or during the actual race.

This is exactly the kind of overly restrictive rule that I was referring to in the Raising the bar by requiring "stock" parts thread.
User avatar
Stan Pope
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 6856
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:01 pm
Location: Morton, Illinois
Contact:

Re: Winners of ultimate race has Axle inspections

Post by Stan Pope »

This thread is a strong argument against highly restrictive wheel and axle treatment rules.
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
User avatar
Da Graphite Kid
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 327
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2003 6:29 pm
Location: Eufaula, AL.

Re: Winners of ultimate race has Axle inspections

Post by Da Graphite Kid »

Getting off the post here but...
Stan, I agree - I use pwd car building as an excuse to sharpen my skills and to push me to learn new skills. I also use it as a means to teach my sons and others these skills as well. My grandfather loved woodworking and now I am (hopefully) passing that on to my sons.

Would inspecting the axles/wheels of the winners pwd cars catch all of the cheaters? No, it would just catch those who cheat and win. There could be many others that cheat and are content with a lower placing car - just so they don't have to take the time and effort to learn these skills.

If you had the proper resources, you could make this inspection at a later time (of course you would have to get the trophies back and all that...). A quick trip to a doctors office with an x-ray machine would be a non-destructive way to look at the axles. Place labels on all of the cars and an unfinished axle for scale reference. Measure the x-ray with calipers and inspect with a magnification loop to inspect.


Da Graphite Kid
User avatar
PWD
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 724
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:24 am

Re: Winners of ultimate race has Axle inspections

Post by PWD »

The things which could be inexpected with the wheel remove are:

1) Stock axles. You can't tell with the axles on the car.
2) Side of car modified. In our rules you are not allowed to add something to the side of the car where the wheel touches. Hard to inspect with wheels attached.

I think there are other things.

I question what is being taught to the kids. If you do post race inspection you are saying that you don't trust people to follow the rules. There are also situations where some accidently broke the rules. I have seen it many times. We have a rule where wheels must be flat on the ground. Every year there will be some very poorly built cars where the wheels are canted by accident. I am glad they don't DQ these cars.

-Stev-
-Stev-
User avatar
terryep
Merchant
Merchant
Posts: 423
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 8:13 pm
Location: Fredericton, Canada
Contact:

Re: Winners of ultimate race has Axle inspections

Post by terryep »

I've read that sometimes a car will get DQ'd and efforts are made to correct the problem (before racing begins) Wouldn't it be better to have a couple sets of “fixed up” wheels and axels handy and not just "out of the box" ones?

Terry

RE: original thread.... to tear down a car is a bad idea when it may only be the first win in a string of races! Trust is a good thing.
Teeeman
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1577
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:40 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Winners of ultimate race has Axle inspections

Post by Teeeman »

Our personal goal is to be legal 'til it hurst, and do our best.

My son did OK last year, we're trying to improve this year.

I would have liked (at District) to see an inspection of the top 3 car, they were ridiculously faster than the times the top 20 or so cars (of 150) were all running give or take thousandths...

but you can't tear a car down without risk of damage or screwing up alignment, etc.


And trust is a good thing.

I keep enforcing on my son we will NOT cheat, even though it would be easy.
I tell him what the ways to cheat are, and tell him we are not doing them, and we don't.

Sadly, most of the best cheats would require an X-ray to see, and that is impractical for cost IMO.

We got accused of cheating (behind our backs, heard via the grapevine) and it really hurt our feelings.

BTW, if someone cheats and doesn't do well, they probably don't truly understand PWD technique... for that matter, they may figure what they did to improve the car illegally worked against them as they should have won since they cheated...

I would say let 'em cheat so long as they aren't winning, it will self-correct...

but if the winners are cheating, and you catch them, that would be both sweet and sickening...

it would be sweet for all the guys who didn't cheat to see justice, but for the kid who cheated (or whose dad taught him to cheat) it would be heart-breaking... and fair.
Would be a very tough life lesson...

What I think would reduce cheating or (worse) false accusation is communication... openly discussing techniques, having a Pack workshop, etc.
Our Pack doesn't seem to have much of that... if we win Pack this year, I might offer to give a couple weekends of PWD instructional at my house with demo on the tools... I think a lot of dads will be surprised to see what their sons can accomplish with some relatively cheap tools!

-Terry
"I dunno..." - Uncle Eddie, Christmas Vacation
nosam116
Journeyman
Journeyman
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:39 am

Re: Winners of ultimate race has Axle inspections

Post by nosam116 »

Do you also check to see if the participant straightened the axles, which is so many times needed on the "quality" stock equipment.
IMHO, I think the rules should be reconsidered, because they're limited the teachings that can take place.
Each day is a good race day!
User avatar
2kids10horses
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:57 am
Location: North Geogia

Re: Winners of ultimate race has Axle inspections

Post by 2kids10horses »

Wow... no polishing axles! Can you remove the burr at the bottom of the nail head?

My Scout shop sells a "Speed Kit", consisting of some pretty rough sandpaper, 4 or 5 better quality nails than those that come in the box and some pumice to polish them with. Is it legal to use these?

My position is that they Better Be Legal since they're sold in the Scout Shop!

This extreme rule setting serves to take the skill out of building a derby car. It's 'Political Correctness' to the extreme. It's not fair that some boys will polish their axles and some boys won't so those boys that don't polish their axles are going to lose... Whine, whine, whine.

Let me tell ya, it sickens me to hear about stuff like that!

More rant:

Our first year in Cubs, we were clueless! Our car didn't finish last, we were next to last! Did we complain that it wasn't fair? No! I realized there must be something more to this, and we researched it! Eventually I found this site, and have since learned a lot!

We went from next to last as a tiger, to 1st in Den and competive - but not top 3 - as a Wolf, then Pack Champ and 3rd in District as a Bear, to returning Pack Champ as a Weblos I. (District yet to be run.)

Give me a break!

Rant off.

Whew... I feel better now! Thanks!

2kids10horses... and the other mother bunny just had 9 babies! Stop the madness!!!!
Post Reply