Question of accuracy with starting gate hardware

Discussions on race planning, preparations and how to run a "fair" and fun race.
Post Reply
User avatar
pack529holycross
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:25 pm
Location: Dr. Phillips, Florida
Contact:

Question of accuracy with starting gate hardware

Post by pack529holycross »

I was reading in another post the following statements referencing the advantages and disadvantages of Times vs. Points with regards to Timer Errors:

"Points Advantage
If the operator running the start gate causes a slow heat (which can happen with the older style gates), the results are still valid as the heat time is irrelevant. With Times, the heat would need to be rerun (if the problem was detected).


Times Disadvantage
On some tracks operator error can significantly affect times. A fool-proof starting gate is a must for this method of scoring."


I an going into my very first Derby Event using the following equiptment, all brand new for this year:

BESTRACK 6 lane Aluminum Track
MicroWizard K3 Timer with Laser Gate
GrandPrix GPM software

Here are my questions:

1 - to what extend does our combination of equipment serve to minimize or reduce the potential for negative influence caused by starting gates?

2 - does the use of the laser gate insure accurate time recording and reduce "human" effect on the heats?

3 - are there adaptive solenoid devices for the existing BESTRACK starting mechanism that would be relatively easy to produce, install, and operate?

4 - does the use of the laser gate make using an solenoid system just overkill and an attempt to be high tech vs. more accurate?

Thank you in advance for your help
Nicholas Durante
Pack Committee Chairman
529 Holy Cross Lake Mary Florida
http://529.futureeagles.info
Last edited by pack529holycross on Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Stan Pope
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 6856
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:01 pm
Location: Morton, Illinois
Contact:

Re: Question of accuracy with starting gate hardware

Post by Stan Pope »

pack529holycross wrote:"Points Advantage
If the operator running the start gate causes a slow heat (which can happen with the older style gates), the results are still valid as the heat time is irrelevant. With Times, the heat would need to be rerun (if the problem was detected).
This statement is only partly correct, since a slowly-opened gate gives advantage to cars with more elevated noses. So, while the finish order can be compared to those of other heats, you might be comparing a different finish order than had the gate been operated correctly!

Poor gate operation adds a variance to car times that is usually greater than the difference between car times. In other words, car quality becomes less important than luck!

Poor gate operation adds less variance to car finish order. But, it can still affect final results,
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
User avatar
gpraceman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4926
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Contact:

Re: Question of accuracy with starting gate hardware

Post by gpraceman »

pack529holycross wrote:1 - to what extend does our combination of equipment serve to minimize or reduce the potential for negative influence caused by starting gates?
The BestTrack has a gate that will pop open with the release of a lever. This is far more consistent than using an older style gate where the speed of opening is entirely dependant on the human operating it.
pack529holycross wrote:2 - does the use of the laser gate insure accurate time recording and reduce "human" effect on the heats?
All the laser gate does is sense the beginning of the heat. The problem with using a laser gate or other optical sensor, used in the same manner, is that differing car nose profiles will give a different time for the start event. I think it is better to have a consistent start event, which is one based on the gate itself opening.

The other issue with the laser gate is keeping it aligned. A bump to the track (like the gate snapping open) can cause the beam to go off, which gets the timer to start timing prematurely. If that happens occassionally, you are adding in more variation to the timing. The mechanical switches are easier to deal with and provide a more consistent start event.
pack529holycross wrote:3 - are there adaptive solenoid devices for the existing BESTRACK starting mechanism that would be relatively easy to produce, install, and operate?
New Directions, makers of The Judge, do make a solenoid gate that will work on a BestTrack. They do have to modify it to work with the Fast Track timers. The gate cannot automatically reset itself before the heat is over, so I believe a delay is added. If you do not purchase their light tree, then they need to modify the gate further so you can trigger it via a switch.
pack529holycross wrote:4 - does the use of the laser gate make using an solenoid system just overkill and an attempt to be high tech vs. more accurate?
A solenoid gate may provide a bit more consistency, but the BestTrack gate does work pretty consistently. IMO the laser gate leads to more potential timing variation.
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8

Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
TAL
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 300
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 8:47 pm
Location: N.C., USA

Re: Question of accuracy with starting gate hardware

Post by TAL »

I have never really understood why people put the laser gate where cars start the timer and can really cause time differences.

If I were going to use a laser gate I would line it up with the pins of the starting gate and let the pins start the timer, But then again your laser gate has to be firmly mounted and must stay at a consistent position.

Only way that I trust a seloniod starting gate is if the solenoid pulls the handle that drops the starting gate and some how the starting gate (either by remote switch or laser gate) actually starts the timer.
User avatar
gpraceman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4926
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Contact:

Re: Question of accuracy with starting gate hardware

Post by gpraceman »

TAL wrote:I have never really understood why people put the laser gate where cars start the timer and can really cause time differences.

If I were going to use a laser gate I would line it up with the pins of the starting gate and let the pins start the timer, But then again your laser gate has to be firmly mounted and must stay at a consistent position.
The problem is that using the supplied brackets, you can't mount the laser and receiver that close to the pins. You'd have to custom make some brackets to do so. Even then, the start gate release lever may get in the way.
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8

Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
TAL
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 300
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 8:47 pm
Location: N.C., USA

Re: Question of accuracy with starting gate hardware

Post by TAL »

True .

Seems either way custom mounts would have to be made.

Would it be possible to mount the laser for the start gate release lever to break the beam of the laser?


Would it be possible to mount the laser underside the track and let the pins dropping break the beam?
User avatar
pack529holycross
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:25 pm
Location: Dr. Phillips, Florida
Contact:

Re: Question of accuracy with starting gate hardware

Post by pack529holycross »

OK, so answer me this - given the potential limitations of the Laser Gate, how exactly does my combination of hardware trigger the start of the heat timer without using the laser gate? ( remember I am not yet in possession of our new hardware so this may be an academic question :-) )

Nicholas
TAL
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 300
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 8:47 pm
Location: N.C., USA

Re: Question of accuracy with starting gate hardware

Post by TAL »

They do also offer remote start switches

$10.00 at micro wizard

Also a remote switch also comes standard when you get the PS option (serial port) with your timer . K-1, K-2 or K-3. The PS option is needed if you plan on using a computer.


The K-3 Grandprix package comes with both a remote start switch and a laser gate and you can use the one you prefer.
User avatar
pack529holycross
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:25 pm
Location: Dr. Phillips, Florida
Contact:

Re: Question of accuracy with starting gate hardware

Post by pack529holycross »

Ok...so do you mean a remote starter button that is triggered by a person with it in their hand... or a remote starter switch that can be connected to the gate mechanism to get consistent start times?

Nicholas
User avatar
gpraceman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4926
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Contact:

Re: Question of accuracy with starting gate hardware

Post by gpraceman »

pack529holycross wrote:Ok...so do you mean a remote starter button that is triggered by a person with it in their hand... or a remote starter switch that can be connected to the gate mechanism to get consistent start times?
If you order their laser gate (laser sensor is a more appropriate term), they also include a mechanical switch. Just mount the mechanical switch so the opening of the gate releases the switch. That signals the timer when the heat has started.
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8

Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
Post Reply