Opinion desired on this rule for Official Weigh Ins

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pack529holycross
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Opinion desired on this rule for Official Weigh Ins

Post by pack529holycross »

Let me know what you think about this rule, or your experience with "underweight" cars:


"After your car receives a sticker, take your entry to the “Pit Area” to be weighed on the “Official” Derby Scale. If your Derby Racer is between 4.90 and 5.00 ounces, your car will be considered to be Officially weighed and cleared for racing.

All Derby Racers that are cleared for racing will be immediately impounded at the Impound Area/Starter's Table.

Any Derby Racer that falls BELOW 4.90 ounces will be given the OPTION of removing their car from the Official Scale and returning to the Pit Area to bring their Derby Racer within spec.

Any Derby Racer that EXCEEDS 5.00 ounces will be REQUIRED to remove their Derby Racer from the Official Scale and return to the Pit Area to bring their Derby Racer within Spec.

Note: for the sake of efficiency, any given Derby Racer that is found to be UNDERWEIGHT shall be re-weighed ONCE. If the Derby Racer is within the proper range during re-weighing, then it is considered to be Officially weighed and cleared for racing. Any OVERWEIGHT Derby Racers must be Officially weighed and cleared for racing prior to the presentation of the Colors at the beginning of the event.

Apply any final lubricants before you submit your car for weigh-in. After being impounded, repairs will be limited to replacement of axles/wheels that are broken/lost during the race."
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Re: Opinion desired on this rule for Official Weigh Ins

Post by Pinewood Daddy »

The cubs have the option of adding weight but many don't. Restricting to one reweigh is a bit tough. This is a kids race not NASCAR. There should be an unofficial scale at the pit area that will get them very close to the official scale. That should be good enough unless they're over.
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Re: Opinion desired on this rule for Official Weigh Ins

Post by Go Bubba Go »

Pinewood Daddy wrote:The cubs have the option of adding weight but many don't. Restricting to one reweigh is a bit tough. This is a kids race not NASCAR. There should be an unofficial scale at the pit area that will get them very close to the official scale. That should be good enough unless they're over.
In agreement with the above reply.

An unofficial (but accurate) scale in the pit area helps prevent congestion at the official check-in.

Weight should also be the first thing you check. Whenever a boy takes his car back to the pit area, we start over from scratch and check all dimensions again when he returns. Since weight is the dimension that most often needs rework, it is the first one we check.

Bubba
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Stan Pope
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Re: Opinion desired on this rule for Official Weigh Ins

Post by Stan Pope »

It is unclear what happens if the car is "underweight" on its second official weighing. Does it matter ir the need for a second weighing was because he was overweight on the first?

Tuning car weight on the official scale is a bad plan ... so be sure that there is a pit scale sufficiently accurate that at the official weigh-in the car can be 5.0 oz.

Arbitrarily preventing addition of weight if the car registers 4.9 oz penalizes the newbie who doesn't take the car to the pit for a preliminary weigh in. The car may be nearly 0.2 oz under the legal weight and that is an significant part of an inch at the finish line!
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pack529holycross
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Re: Opinion desired on this rule for Official Weigh Ins

Post by pack529holycross »

Ok so perhaps a modification of sorts:


"After your car receives a sticker, take your entry to the “Pit Area” to be weighed on the “Official” Derby Scale. If your Derby Racer is between 4.90 and 5.00 ounces, your car will be considered to be Officially weighed and cleared for racing. There will be "unofficial" scales in the Pit Area to aid in helping you get your car as close to 5.00 ounces as possible.

All Derby Racers that are cleared for racing will be immediately impounded at the Impound Area/Starter's Table.

Any Derby Racer that falls BELOW 4.90 ounces will be given the OPTION of removing their car from the Official Scale and returning to the Pit Area to bring their Derby Racer within spec.

Any Derby Racer that EXCEEDS 5.00 ounces will be REQUIRED to remove their Derby Racer from the Official Scale and return to the Pit Area to bring their Derby Racer within Spec.

Note: for the sake of efficiency, if you have to work on your Derby Racer due to weight issues, please try to get you Derby Racer as close to (BUT NOT OVER) 5.00 Ounces before coming back to the Weigh-In Table. This will reduce unncessary delays. Please come EARLY if you feel you will have issues with optimal weight.

Any OVERWEIGHT Derby Racers must be Officially weighed and cleared for racing prior to the presentation of the Colors at the beginning of the event.

Apply any final lubricants before you submit your car for weigh-in. After being impounded, repairs will be limited to replacement of axles/wheels that are broken/lost during the race."
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Re: Opinion desired on this rule for Official Weigh Ins

Post by psycaz »

You might expect to get pushback on the 4.90 or over and your car is impounded, under you get to add more weight.

Folks will want to get their car as close to maximum weight they can. Being told they are under but not allowed to maximize it because they are too close to the maximum. That .01 does actually make a difference on the track.
I can't remember exactly how much, but enough to decide wining or losing on otherwise equal cars.

Just an fyi.
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Re: Opinion desired on this rule for Official Weigh Ins

Post by Go Bubba Go »

I would consider just dropping the 4.90 verbiage altogether.

If the car is under 5.0, you are provided the option to go back to the pit table and add weight.

If the car is over 5.0, you are required to remove weight to bring it down to the 5.0 limit.

Every time they return to the pit, they should return to the back of the check-in line. Waiting in line over and over will be enough to discourage most "overtinkering". And with a similar and accurate scale in the pit, the actual tinkering will occur away from the check-in area.

Bubba
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Re: Opinion desired on this rule for Official Weigh Ins

Post by Stan Pope »

psycaz wrote:That .01 does actually make a difference on the track.
The actual difference is potentially nearly 0.2 oz! Why? The scale with one decimal digit rounds! Which means that a car in the range 4.85 to 4.95 oz registers 4.9 oz. - "Not Underweight" and impounded. A car in the range 4.95 to 5.05 registers 5.0 oz. = "Legal". And 5.05 - 4.85 is 0.2 oz.

BTW, the savvy do come in "race ready" at 5.04+ oz in that weigh-in situation and are routinely passed!

I think that the 4.9 oz rule is being used to help the newbies avoid being seriously underweight. Consider that they may also have weighed in the pit, but they did it wrong! So that intent might be acomplished by asking them what the weight of the car was on the pit scale (the racer accepted that) and if the official scale shows less, then allow 'em to figure out why and to fix the problem.
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pack529holycross
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Re: Opinion desired on this rule for Official Weigh Ins

Post by pack529holycross »

Well - lots of input! I like that.... it means that we are all thinking outside the pinebox...

When it comes to the concern about being accepted within the range, I think the modification to eliminate the number of weighins makes sense. My modified rule leaves in place the option to remove your car from the scale and add more weight. I think the modified rule strikes a sound balance between overtinkering and under-potential newbie cars. Thank you very much for your professional, experienced opinions.

Nicholas
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Re: Opinion desired on this rule for Official Weigh Ins

Post by Stan Pope »

Just for grins, I plugged the weights into a typical car running on a 32' Piantedosi track (28' start to finish) and got a difference of 0.374 inches (3/8") at the finish line for otherwise equal cars running at 5.04 oz (registers 5.0 oz) and 4.85 oz. (registers 4.9 oz) That is a lot for a newbie to give up due to misunderstanding of rule or error in using the (trial) pit scale.

The difference would be greater on a longer track.

Another scenario that I've seen happen: Junior and Dad are walking away after successfully completing inspection with the car impounded. After 15 feet, they stop, look at each other and say, in unison, "Graphite! We forgot to put the graphite in it!"

They return to inspection and ask that they be allowed to correct the error and go through inspection again during the half hour of inspection period remaining.

Here are two answers that they might get:

1. Sorry, no. The car is impounded. It must race as is. (Hey! it's okay if the car loses by 3 feet!)

2. Sure. Just be careful not to change anything that might affect inspection! Then bring it back to be inspected again because if you pull the car, the first inspection doesn't count!

This does happen from time to time when groups are sharing graphite and the leader offers to bring graphite for them to apply before racing. In the excitement they skip right past that step!
Stan
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Re: Opinion desired on this rule for Official Weigh Ins

Post by Pinewood Daddy »

Stan Pope wrote:Just for grins, I plugged the weights into a typical car running on a 32' Piantedosi track (28' start to finish) and got a difference of 0.374 inches (3/8") at the finish line for otherwise equal cars running at 5.04 oz (registers 5.0 oz) and 4.85 oz. (registers 4.9 oz)
That's great to know!! At the District level races are won or lost by that much!!
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Re: Opinion desired on this rule for Official Weigh Ins

Post by Jomo »

Go Bubba Go wrote:I would consider just dropping the 4.90 verbiage altogether.

If the car is under 5.0, you are provided the option to go back to the pit table and add weight.

If the car is over 5.0, you are required to remove weight to bring it down to the 5.0 limit.

Every time they return to the pit, they should return to the back of the check-in line. Waiting in line over and over will be enough to discourage most "overtinkering". And with a similar and accurate scale in the pit, the actual tinkering will occur away from the check-in area.

Bubba
I agree. At our race the other night (our first, so I know I'm really educated here). I had all my stuff set up on a table and before I knew it, I had a line of people coming to me for weight and graphite. I had a bunch of extra weights (I get stick on tire weights from work) a couple tubes of graphite and some digital scales. My scales read 4.65oz and the car weighed 5.0oz on the official scales so we knew about what their cars needed to weigh. It worked out really good because there wasn't an official pit area. I even had people trying to pay me for the weights.
I could see making a limit on trips through the line but if your under by any amount, you should be allowed to adjust.
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Re: Opinion desired on this rule for Official Weigh Ins

Post by pack529holycross »

I consider myself fortunate to have pulled the Pack "Scale" out of the box and see that it registers 5.00 ounces on the readout. This then prevents anyone from attempting to pass a car that weighs 5.01 ounces, and also allows us to know what the car actually weighs. Without even having run my first official event, I can tell you that it is no more expensive to get a .00 scale than a .0 scale, and the headaches it can prevent are well worth the effort.

Nicholas
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Re: Opinion desired on this rule for Official Weigh Ins

Post by Stan Pope »

Pinewood Daddy wrote:That's great to know!! At the District level races are won or lost by that much!!
Alex won district by less that that last year! Next to last run registered a "tie". The other too were really tight ... < 0.05", I think. (At that point in the competition, Alex had to win two heats before the other boy won one heat.) I (almost) hated to see the other boy not get the GC trophy!

This year, we will try to make the finish line judges job easier. :)
Stan
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