Return of the New Guy - Rules Nightmare

[Nooby]

Last Year brought about a 300 Mile move and unfortunately, scouting got lost in the chaos.

This year we are back in the scouting and the Derby.

My son received his kit in December, and we started work over Christmas break. With 6 days before the Derby, we received an email copy of the "official" rules. Unfortunately, my sons car had an extended wheelbase and the rules said that the axle slots could not be moved. The rules, however, did not say that the axle slots had to be used.

So we started a second car. Then I contacted the Scout master, and he said that an extended wheelbase would be fine. I was little confused. He told me that on Monday (derby was Friday) he was going to meet with the Tigers to make sure they had the rules (giving Tigers without email 4 days notice of the rules). I went to the Tiger meeting with a picture of the car, and was told the extended wheelbase would not be a problem.

The scout master was super nice, and told me that no one who volunteered for the derby committee had ever attended a meeting. In this pack, the derby is always handled by the Bear dens.

At this point, my son and I resumed work on the first car.

On derby day - I show up 2 hours early and help with the set up. None of the Derby Committee is there to help.

My sons car passes inspection and is ready to race. Forty minutes later, literally, minutes before the start of racing - the parents who were supposed to be running the event decide it is now time to take charge. And guess what? they don't like my sons car so they tell me (not him) that if he wins, he will not receive a trophy.

Basically, the argument went like this.

The rules in the box prohibit moving the axles - I don't believe so.

The rules are posted on the web - they are not, and in fact no one knows what rules the District race will be under - thus continuing the chaos.

It doesn't matter what the scout master told you - he isn't in charge - but he was the only one doing anything.

If anyone cares here is my advice for the Derby

1. Get the rules - if you are a participant.
2. Give out the rules with the car kit if you are running the derby.
3. If someones asks about a rule - officials need make a call and stick with it - thus giving people time to comply with the decision.
4. If you want to run the derby - put some effort into it - the kids and adults will appreciate it.

There was a happy ending - Being a former scout, I was taught to be prepared.

Remember car number 2 - We finished that car for the adult exhibition race - and made it comply with the "official" last minute rules.

He was allowed to enter car number 2 - my son had worked on the car - but not after we were told the original car was OK. He had much more sweat equity in the first car.

How did he do? The car was aggressively weighted 7/8" CG as opposed to 1 1/4 for the first car. The car was squirrely, but didn't lose a race.

He's off to Districts - and still doesn't know the district rules. But he has 2 cars - and thus, 2 bites at the rules apple.

Which car was faster? Like the owl said "The world may never know"

[PWD_addict]

Wonderful ending to the story. I hope you have already volunteered to Chair the event next year, if the Bears will let you!

Be careful (he speaks from experience), you may end up chairing the District Pinewood Derby. Last year (son's Tiger year), we won the Pack and were told we'd represent that Pack at Districts. I kept trying to find out the rules and ended up at a Roundtable only to find out there were no rules and no Chair and therefore, no District Derby. Guess who is now the Chair for the Chesapeake District of the Baltimore Area Council Pinewood Derby?

Best of luck at Districts!!!

[Nooby]

The irony is that the year we skipped was my son's Bear year. Don't worry, I have a Tiger in the queue for next year.

I was race chairman his second year (before we moved), and put quite a bit of work into planning the derby. I attended a summer "fun" race and was learned how not to run a derby (there are some post on that)

After consulting this board - I decided to run a 5 round no-chart elimination. My wife printed and laminated Drivers Licenses with boys pictures and car number the night before. We used a white board and magnets to display results. The event went so wonderfully, that one of the bystanders offered to match us $500 dollar for dollar for a new track (our old track was homemade and we had a few cars pop but on expansion joints)

My wife wanted to do a fundraiser with Webkinz - quite new 2 years ago, and we found a grey market importer. The deal didn't sound right, so we notified Gantz (the maker) and in appreciation for helping to unearth this grey market importer - they supplied us with Webkinz for the fundraiser. I'm not sure of the final numbers, but I think we raised $1200 for a new track, and didn't even need the matching funds - but it motivated the pack.

As the fundraiser was winding down, we were packing up for the move. I never saw the track, but heard it is very nice.

[PWD_addict]

The irony is that the year we skipped was my son's Bear year. Don't worry, I have a Tiger in the queue for next year.

I was race chairman his second year (before we moved), and put quite a bit of work into planning the derby. I attended a summer "fun" race and was learned how not to run a derby (there are some post on that)

After consulting this board - I decided to run a 5 round no-chart elimination. My wife printed and laminated Drivers Licenses with boys pictures and car number the night before. We used a white board and magnets to display results. The event went so wonderfully, that one of the bystanders offered to match us $500 dollar for dollar for a new track (our old track was homemade and we had a few cars pop but on expansion joints)

My wife wanted to do a fundraiser with Webkinz - quite new 2 years ago, and we found a grey market importer. The deal didn't sound right, so we notified Gantz (the maker) and in appreciation for helping to unearth this grey market importer - they supplied us with Webkinz for the fundraiser. I'm not sure of the final numbers, but I think we raised $1200 for a new track, and didn't even need the matching funds - but it motivated the pack.

As the fundraiser was winding down, we were packing up for the move. I never saw the track, but heard it is very nice.

Nice story with a sad ending. Sorry you didn't get to reap the results of your hard work but you can rest assured that the boys in your old Pack are enjoying it.

Our Pack's "Parents Club" held a Bull and Oyster Roast (popular here in Maryland) and raised almost $4000 for our Pack.

[Stan Pope]

Good post, Nooby! Thanks.

[Go Bubba Go]

If anyone cares here is my advice for the Derby

...2. Give out the rules with the car kit if you are running the derby.

Very good advice.

When we hand out our cars, they now come wrapped with 2 - 8.5 x 11 sheets and a rubber band. The first sheet contains our rules document and schedule for the event. The second sheet contains a flyer for the Workshops that we hold. The second sheet also has our PWD hotline number (my cell phone ) for rules questions, building advice, scheduling visits to my shop, etc.

I understand that some Packs "spread the work" by having a particular grade level run a particular event each year, but there still may be an opportunity to provide some ongoing assistance or oversight to add a little continuity (and sanity) to the event. Chances are if you just proposed taking over the event they would be more than willing to let you have it.

Bubba

[Nooby]

This was the first derby where I wasn't moving cars around, announcing or otherwise assisting the running of the race. It was nice to actually watch the cars and the kids. I even got a few minutes of video.

But it could have been better. The rules controversy was actually behind the scenes - so it didn't impact any other scout's derby experience.

The scheduling was PPN or some type of pre determined schedule. The bad part was that no results were posted between rounds. I had no idea who was winning, but was pretty sure my son was undefeated.

Somebody also thought it was a good idea to have representative from council come in and talk about summer camp for a half hour - before the race. By the end of the event - there were some pretty disinterested boys.

Lots of room for improvement here - outside of the rules.

[chesspupil]

As for the Rules, I whole heartedly agree, they need to go with the car.

Car construction rules, and the layout of the track (incline with flat run or all incline, track make) should also be included.

Inspection guidelines and, as stated, points of contact, should also be given. Who is appointed to give answers to rules clarifications should be on the rules list.

During beginning year signups, the person with approving authority should be given.

If its the first year of starting a derby up or after a few years of dis-use, A flyer a few months prior should be used as a race committee discussion night... rules on the agenda.

Attendees and aproving officails should also be known.



District rules should be mirrored infavor of a local rule which disadvantages the racer in later events.

[Nooby]

I think there are 2 issues.

1. Notice of the Rules

2. Interpretation of the rules

Posting the rules 6 days before the race is asking for trouble. My sons car was impacted because the design he chose had no wood in the area where the wheels would have to be moved to bring it into compliance.

The rules state that the axle slots cannot be moved. However, they never say that the axle slots must be used. He didn't move the slots, he simply used the other side of the block.

While I know the above rule "implies" that the slots must be used, the rules in the box "imply" the axles should be nailed into the slots, without ever saying the slots must be used. However, most people that I have talked to extend the wheelbase.

[MWdream]

My first point is kids should be building the car. Kids do not extend wheelbases, parents do.

Second point is if you want to modify the car beyond what a "normal" car looks like you should get approval. In this case the scoutmaster should have stepped in and said he approved it, end of story. Sounds like he was a coward at race time.

Extended wheelbase is a big advantage and should not be allowed. Perhaps have another race for "parents" to enter if they want to show off their engineering degrees. This is for the kids.

[PWD_addict]

My son (Wolf) has no problems extending the wheelbase. AND, he understands the reason behind it and can explain it.

Who is to define what "normal" is?

MWDream--do you know who Don Murphy is?

"I wanted to devise a wholesome, constructive activity that would foster a closer father-son relationship and promote craftsmanship and good sportsmanship through competition."

Don Murphy,
Founder of the Pinewood Derby in 1953
Manhattan Beach, CA Cub Scout Pack 280C

Sorry MWDream, you are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think you understand the original purpose for the Pinewood Derby.

Scouting is not a babysitting service, it is for the parents to spend quality time with their boys.

[Darin McGrew]

My first point is kids should be building the car. Kids do not extend wheelbases, parents do.

I beg to differ. I've seen kids extend wheelbases at our workshops. It isn't hard to do, and we have the necessary tools available (along with adult supervision to make sure the tools are used safely).

Extended wheelbase is a big advantage and should not be allowed.

Lubricating the wheels is a big advantage. Should it not be allowed too?

[Nooby]

When my son was a Tiger, he was able to understand (maybe not retain) the reasons to have a longer wheelbase.

In that pack, no one said "you may extend the wheelbase." However, 80 to 90 percent of the cars had an extended wheelbase.

The Boy Scouts should step in to clarify this "rule". Since they have not, it is apparent that they want to defer this rule to the individual packs. This makes it even more important for each pack to clearly state the rules.

[Go Bubba Go]

The Boy Scouts should step in to clarify this "rule". Since they have not, it is apparent that they want to defer this rule to the individual packs. This makes it even more important for each pack to clearly state the rules.

They have chosen (at least apparently) to defer this rule to the individual Packs, and in my opinion this is the right call to make.

I personally welcome the opportunity for boys (and parents) to learn how to think for themselves, to look around and see what others are doing (as can be done extensively on this board) and choose for themselves how they want to run their Pack races. The last thing we need is further training in how to be beholden to some "expert" who will tell us how to run our lives.

Very good point on clearly stating the rules once chosen. We follow our Council rules (because we choose to participate in the Council race), although we run a different race format (times instead of points, averages instead of single elimination brackets). The rules are printed on an 8.5 x 11 sheet attached by a rubber band (along with workshop flyer) to the kits when they are handed out to the boys.

Bubba

p.s. As to kids not extending wheelbases, I think the assertion is wrong on several fronts:

1) Kids are certainly capable of understanding the "why"s of extending a wheelbase.

2) Esp. if you have a Pro Body tool, kids are certainly capable of performing the function (with supervision, of course, for safety).

3) This is a learning exercise. Are we just to not teach our kids anything and expect that at some point, when they become Parents themselves, they will suddenly gain this knowledge? Or do we think this knowledge is not worth learning?

[blakesfav]

Saw this discussion from earlier - it has become a difficult topic on the local level for us. I am opposed to allowing lengthening of the wheelbase for a few reasons:
1) Many of our scouts have no dad at home to help them with the car, therefore no alignment jigs, no drill press, etc. The race shouldn't necessarily be about who has the most resources.

2) With #1 in mind, lengthening the wheelbase does offer a slight competetive advantage

3) Our district has not evolved to the point that we are having consistent workshops to help the "underresourced" kids equal the playing field.

4) In some our economically disadvantaged packs (which are common in Louisiana), #1 applies even if a dad is present in the home.

At some point, we're going to have to start building these cars only in workshops, with no cars brought home so that dad can take over. I think that would capture the true intent of the activity.