Does this happen every year?

[jeffd]

You post the rules for a given race. And someone doesn't listen or for whatever reason doesn't pay close attention to them.

Our pack rules, for instance, state that you must use the BSA kit (no pinecar) . I know - the pinecar pre-cut kits are great for the parent without a bunch of tools in the garage - but this was a council rule. This is also why we had a workshop where we cut out designs. Sure enough, one kid showed up with a pinecar kit - but fortunately showed up with the BSA wheels on it. The rules passed out very clearly stated NO PINECAR.

I am not the chair for the event and likely have only a little more say than everyone here - but what are your thoughts on this?

Go hard line - rules are rules? or make an exception and deal with it every year?

Thanks in advance.

[Darin McGrew]

We don't deal with it every year, but once every few years, someone brings in a car that has PineCar (or some other non-CSB) wheels. We hand them a set of our wheels and axles and don't register their car until it has the right wheels and axles.

Technically, our rules require them to use the block that came with the kit, but at registration we enforce only that they use wood for the car's structure (i.e., any block), and that they have the same wheels and axles as everyone else.

[PWD_addict]

We did have a car that was actually a train and was clearly not made with the BSA block. We let it pass anyway since it didn't appear to be built to give it any advantage. It was a little better than middle of the pack and met every other rule.

[pack529holycross]

if you used the rule " the car must use everything in the BSA official box ", then you simply need to include a rule that states " any car that does not comply with the official rules may run in the open class but not in the awards class "


Nicholas

[ohiofitter]

I think pine cars are good for a true single mom. We have had at least 1 pre-cut car in the last five years that we've been doing PWD races with the scouts. I believe they meet all the specs that are provided by the BSA rule
(please correct me if I'm wrong) The only thing difference is that the scout didn't make the car. I belong to a organization that holds PWD races. And when it come to the adults most cars are pine car. So I would try to make sure that the scout could make it to a workshop next year.

[jeffd]

Thanks for the responses. My personal feelings on the subject are the pinecar cars are great for the kids. From what I have seen, a kid could actually do everything on the car without much, if any, parental involvement. You wouldn’t need much in the way of tools, and since our Pack’s track is a best track – they could screw the weight in the body and not have a clearance issue that would necessitate countersinking the weight.

But I also like to see how creative some of the kids can get with their designs.

Like another thread had stated, you just wish that the car that didn’t follow the rules was slow – but they usually are the ones that are blazing fast.

Last year we had a nasty incident where a parent was the fastest in the den, but because they used non-BSA wheels, were DQ’d from the finals round to determine who went to district. Net result of some parents yelling was a kid who is no longer in scouts.

[PWD_addict]

Last year we had a nasty incident where a parent was the fastest in the den, but because they used non-BSA wheels, were DQ’d from the finals round to determine who went to district. Net result of some parents yelling was a kid who is no longer in scouts.

That's really sad. Were they told they were non-compliant at check-in?

[jeffd]

I don’t know the whole story **exactly** as it happened. But from what I remember, the boy was allowed to race in the pack but was told he couldn’t go to the district race since his car was “illegal”. The ‘finals’ round was to determine which cars go to district and are considered the pack trophy winners. Like many people they get suckered in by feeling bad for the little kid who only wants to race. But when dad starts cursing at everyone and really making a scene, that when they were asked to leave.

He had won the den races – or was maybe in the top 3 - but didn’t advance to the finals because of the rules.

It is that argument from last year which cause me to think everyone must follow all of the rules and shouldn’t be allowed to race at all against other scouts if they don’t pass inspection.

[BlackLotus]

For my part, I'm a "rules" guy. If you didn't want it to be a rule that was enforced, leave it out and let everyone play level.

I agree with "pack529holycross". Have an open class or outlaw class or something of the sort so that the kid still has a chance to run his car, but, if it does not meet the specs, and can not be fixed before the race, it should not compete against those that followed the rules.

A fine PWD car can be made with very simple hand tools (coping saw and sanpaper, hand drill), less than $.50 in pennies, a bottle of glue and a couple of cans of spray paint. If the parent/child team are not capable of putting it together alone, the pack should have at least one person who would be willing to lend a hand.

[3 Cub Dad]

This is why we have our inspection / check-in the night before the derby. (at the Pack level). The rules state that cars must be checked in the night before or they will not be allowed to race. If there is a rule violation, we "can" allow them overnight to fix it, and check in before the race, on a case-by-case basis. (illegal wheels, axles, etc.) For a kit car we may allow it to race, with legal wheels and axles, but it wouldn't be available to advance. Cars are impounded overnight.

For district, check-in and inspection is before the race. Car fails inspection, it doesn't race. (may correct violation on the spot if possible) Rules were published in December for the April race. To train the inspector judges, I'm making four cars with several illegal items, (actually one car will be totally legal), they must find all of the faults to be allowed to inpect cars.

I don't want to DQ any cars. HATE it for the kids, but it isn't the kids who buy the illegal parts. It's not fair to the others to "just allow them to race"

[Nitro Dan]

I was one of the inspectors at our race this year. Our rules do state that you need to use the materials in the official kit. Sure enough, two PineCar's show up running BSA wheels and axles. We could have got draconian on them and said that they have to run in the outlaw race only, but our rules also allow inspectors to consult in a quorum and make judgement calls to the rules based on what we see. Since we could see that neither cub had polished their axles and that the wheels were unsanded (untouched straight from the box), we determined that letting the cars race would not alter the final standings (this is the real question that needs to be answered before DQ'ing a car). Also we had no way of proving that the boys didn't copy the Pinecar design and actually used the BSA block (although I feel if we had asked the boys if they were indeed Pinecar cars they would have given us an honest answer). The key is we didn't criticize anyone for what they had done, but rather used the opportunity to promote our workshops for next year (to the parents) and told the boys there were a number of things we could do at the workshops to help them make their cars all the faster.

-Nitro Dan