Illegal wheels / mods - BUSTED
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Illegal wheels / mods - BUSTED
Thought I'd share this as both an indication of the need for, and results of, vigilance with regard to inspections (this one's for you, Teeeman ).
We had our Council Race this last weekend, and we had 2 inspectors in our particular race area (5 race areas total - one for each grade). Because they were both novices, and for consistency sake, I had one concentrate on non-wheel issues (weight, length, clearance, etc.), and I had the second inspector focus just on wheels. Spent a few minutes explaining our rules regarding wheels and mods, the more "common" violations and how to identify them. Equipped her with a little pen light, and she went to work.
So midway through the morning, after identifying and resolving some minor wheels issues, a boy and his dad (I think) arrive at the inspection table with a car equipped with 1 gram wheels (not even remotely legal for us - we are very limited with our mods, not even coning of hubs). Our newly trained inspector spots the lack of lettering on the inside of the wheels and the thin tread, and tells the two they need to change the wheels. (BTW we have a Trading Post at the event where new #17007 wheel kits can be purchased). Dad kind of frowns, sees she isn't wavering, and goes and purchases the new wheels. He then returns and begins removing the extra weight taped on top of the car and changing out the wheels (oddly enough, the extra weight seemed to cover the exact differential between 1.0 and 3.6 gram stock wheels ).
Our inspector passes them and sends them down to me for a final check before the boy enters the race area (I double check for consistency and to ensure the inspectors are working out OK). The boy turns the car upside down so I can take a quick look and what do I see but hubs rounded in a perfect semi-circle and polished to a brilliant shine, with lathed and graphited treads. (We don't allow either coning/modifying of hubs or lathing wheels, and no graphiting was allowed in the building).
I quietly point this out to my inspector and she indicates that she watched dad pull these wheels "fresh from the new box" that he says he just purchased at the Trading Post. She didn't bother to look closely and notice the hubs or lathed surface because, after all, she watched him pull them right from the "new" box. Dad nods and says yes he did.
I point out to dad that rounded hubs and lathed treads are not allowed according to our rules and that they don't come that way in the box. He asserts they're new, I assert they don't come that way in the box and the mods aren't legal. Before I can offer to walk him down to the Trading Post myself and purchase a random set of new wheels for him to use, he looks at me and the inspector and says something to the effect of "I'm not putting up with this, I've had enough", grabs Jr. and the car and leaves with mom (I assume) trailing along behind.
Sorry to see the boy get such a completely poor lesson from his dad, but not sorry the remaining boys got a level (or at least more level) playing field.
Bubba
p.s. Between the inspectors at my table and those at the next table over (led by another Pinehead), they ID'd at least 4 sets of 1 grams and 5 sets of 2.2s out of about 520 cars (as well as some other issues that were all resolved amiably). All but "stomp off dad" fixed their cars and continued on. I guess he expected his boy to breeze right through the inspectors like he did the year before, when they took 1st place running 1 grams (not ID'd until the finals were about to start) against competitors running full weight wheels on a 28' track. Apparently they're not interested in running on a level playing field.
We had our Council Race this last weekend, and we had 2 inspectors in our particular race area (5 race areas total - one for each grade). Because they were both novices, and for consistency sake, I had one concentrate on non-wheel issues (weight, length, clearance, etc.), and I had the second inspector focus just on wheels. Spent a few minutes explaining our rules regarding wheels and mods, the more "common" violations and how to identify them. Equipped her with a little pen light, and she went to work.
So midway through the morning, after identifying and resolving some minor wheels issues, a boy and his dad (I think) arrive at the inspection table with a car equipped with 1 gram wheels (not even remotely legal for us - we are very limited with our mods, not even coning of hubs). Our newly trained inspector spots the lack of lettering on the inside of the wheels and the thin tread, and tells the two they need to change the wheels. (BTW we have a Trading Post at the event where new #17007 wheel kits can be purchased). Dad kind of frowns, sees she isn't wavering, and goes and purchases the new wheels. He then returns and begins removing the extra weight taped on top of the car and changing out the wheels (oddly enough, the extra weight seemed to cover the exact differential between 1.0 and 3.6 gram stock wheels ).
Our inspector passes them and sends them down to me for a final check before the boy enters the race area (I double check for consistency and to ensure the inspectors are working out OK). The boy turns the car upside down so I can take a quick look and what do I see but hubs rounded in a perfect semi-circle and polished to a brilliant shine, with lathed and graphited treads. (We don't allow either coning/modifying of hubs or lathing wheels, and no graphiting was allowed in the building).
I quietly point this out to my inspector and she indicates that she watched dad pull these wheels "fresh from the new box" that he says he just purchased at the Trading Post. She didn't bother to look closely and notice the hubs or lathed surface because, after all, she watched him pull them right from the "new" box. Dad nods and says yes he did.
I point out to dad that rounded hubs and lathed treads are not allowed according to our rules and that they don't come that way in the box. He asserts they're new, I assert they don't come that way in the box and the mods aren't legal. Before I can offer to walk him down to the Trading Post myself and purchase a random set of new wheels for him to use, he looks at me and the inspector and says something to the effect of "I'm not putting up with this, I've had enough", grabs Jr. and the car and leaves with mom (I assume) trailing along behind.
Sorry to see the boy get such a completely poor lesson from his dad, but not sorry the remaining boys got a level (or at least more level) playing field.
Bubba
p.s. Between the inspectors at my table and those at the next table over (led by another Pinehead), they ID'd at least 4 sets of 1 grams and 5 sets of 2.2s out of about 520 cars (as well as some other issues that were all resolved amiably). All but "stomp off dad" fixed their cars and continued on. I guess he expected his boy to breeze right through the inspectors like he did the year before, when they took 1st place running 1 grams (not ID'd until the finals were about to start) against competitors running full weight wheels on a 28' track. Apparently they're not interested in running on a level playing field.
"Who's Grandpa's neighbor?"... Phil Davis, Down and Derby
Re: Illegal wheels / mods - BUSTED
Bubba,
WTG!!
We caught one set of 2.2g wheels and an e-bay car with 2.2g wheels at our distirict this weekend! (see 1st place & 2nd Place @districts on the builders board!)
I think we had one get through with 2.2g wheels, (it was just way to fast off the starting pin), but didn't have the COM to make it to the top 4.
Hopefully we can discourage this in the future by the word getting out that the inspections will catch them!
GREAT JOB!
Steve
WTG!!
We caught one set of 2.2g wheels and an e-bay car with 2.2g wheels at our distirict this weekend! (see 1st place & 2nd Place @districts on the builders board!)
I think we had one get through with 2.2g wheels, (it was just way to fast off the starting pin), but didn't have the COM to make it to the top 4.
Hopefully we can discourage this in the future by the word getting out that the inspections will catch them!
GREAT JOB!
Steve
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Re: Illegal wheels / mods - BUSTED
as much as I hate the idea of building a wheel weight checker, I can see that it is going to be a necessary tool in the future... UNFORTUNATELY, I think that we really should as leaders find some way of demonstrating the concept of honest, fair, LEGAL, car construction to parents and scouts without having to have an "enforcement" station for those parents who were informed, but ignored the rules. The concept of " let's see of we can get through inspection without getting caught " is such a horrible premise for participating in a Derby as a parent.3 Cub Dad wrote:Bubba,
WTG!!
We caught one set of 2.2g wheels and an e-bay car with 2.2g wheels at our distirict this weekend! (see 1st place & 2nd Place @districts on the builders board!)
I think we had one get through with 2.2g wheels, (it was just way to fast off the starting pin), but didn't have the COM to make it to the top 4.
Hopefully we can discourage this in the future by the word getting out that the inspections will catch them!
GREAT JOB!
Steve
Nicholas
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Re: Illegal wheels / mods - BUSTED
Personally, I think there's something to be said for only testing the winners.
The story of the "Disqualification announcement", whether before awards are given out or in the form of a recovery and distribution of awards later, will stay in pack and race lore for many many years and the cheat will really learn their lesson.
However in this case both cheats were so easy to spot if looking for them that they need to be expelled immediately.
The story of the "Disqualification announcement", whether before awards are given out or in the form of a recovery and distribution of awards later, will stay in pack and race lore for many many years and the cheat will really learn their lesson.
However in this case both cheats were so easy to spot if looking for them that they need to be expelled immediately.
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Re: Illegal wheels / mods - BUSTED
SlartyBartFast wrote:Personally, I think there's something to be said for only testing the winners.
The story of the "Disqualification announcement", whether before awards are given out or in the form of a recovery and distribution of awards later, will stay in pack and race lore for many many years and the cheat will really learn their lesson.
However in this case both cheats were so easy to spot if looking for them that they need to be expelled immediately.
Um... wow.
Scouting specifically prohibits public humiliation of any Scout. I think your concept is so far from the spirit of PWD or Scouting that I have to hope you were just kidding.
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Re: Illegal wheels / mods - BUSTED
Really? So you let your scouts get away with cheating during basketball say? See them cheat during an activity and let it slide?pack529holycross wrote:Um... wow.
Wasn't that dad who walked away humiliated by everyone at the inspection table and who saw them walk?
There's a difference between humiliating someone and holding them accountable.
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Re: Illegal wheels / mods - BUSTED
SlartyBartFast wrote:Really? So you let your scouts get away with cheating during basketball say? See them cheat during an activity and let it slide?pack529holycross wrote:Um... wow.
Wasn't that dad who walked away humiliated by everyone at the inspection table and who saw them walk?
There's a difference between humiliating someone and holding them accountable.
there is a difference between holding someone accountable, and public humiliation - you are advocating an announcement, specifically designed to publicly point out someone as a method for "teaching them a lesson"
BSA does not educate either Scouts or Parents by publicly pointing out their failures. I am afraid I am going to have to recuse myself from further commenting on threads in response to your postings since I personally cannot overlook the fact that you subscribe to this thought process. I respectfully remove myself from our conversation here and any other thread.
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Re: Illegal wheels / mods - BUSTED
It's a mater of degrees. A dishonest scout deserves protection?pack529holycross wrote:BSA does not educate either Scouts or Parents by publicly pointing out their failures.
Is losing a race not humiliation? Is not being chosen best pack or troup or den not a humiliation?
If a scout was continuously dishonest in your group how would you discipline them? If you simply spirit them away, how do you explain it to the rest of the group?
If the father who stormed away starts a whispering campaign against the organisers, how do you deal with it?
PS: not particularly scouting of you to withdraw from ALL conversation based on one difference of opinion.
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Re: Illegal wheels / mods - BUSTED
SlartyBartFast wrote:It's a mater of degrees. A dishonest scout deserves protection?pack529holycross wrote:BSA does not educate either Scouts or Parents by publicly pointing out their failures.
Is losing a race not humiliation? Is not being chosen best pack or troup or den not a humiliation?
If a scout was continuously dishonest in your group how would you discipline them? If you simply spirit them away, how do you explain it to the rest of the group?
If the father who stormed away starts a whispering campaign against the organisers, how do you deal with it?
PS: not particularly scouting of you to withdraw from ALL conversation based on one difference of opinion.
I am withdrawing based on your opinion of the matter. It is very "scouting" of me to refuse to engage in, or entertain the endorsement of, public humiliation. I reserve the right to choose my associations, and I choose not to associate with you within this converasation. I would only say that I have never had a father storm away, because everyone follows the rules, because we are very clear on what the rules are, because we know how to organize and run a derby.
Have a great day
-
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Re: Illegal wheels / mods - BUSTED
Once the car passes the initial inspection, it should be allowed to race and not be reinspected. If the inspection people miss something then Oh well. That is what the inspection is for, to make sure it is up to code. To check a car just because it won is like trying to find out why it won and find something wrong with it. People should not be humiliated in front of the entire Pack. The time to talk to those people is at inspection. I could not imagine telling a young scout even though you just saw your car race and win, you are disqualified because we missed something at inspection. It is not scout who is not following the rules, it is the parents. If the parent wants to go so far as to cheat to win a little trophy for their son, then they have much bigger issues than winning a PWD race.
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Re: Illegal wheels / mods - BUSTED
If you were dealing with fully grown and "professional racer" adults as in NASCAR, perhaps.SlartyBartFast wrote:Personally, I think there's something to be said for only testing the winners.
The story of the "Disqualification announcement", whether before awards are given out or in the form of a recovery and distribution of awards later, will stay in pack and race lore for many many years and the cheat will really learn their lesson.
However in this case both cheats were so easy to spot if looking for them that they need to be expelled immediately.
But when dealing with Cub Scouts and many parents who cross the line out of ignorance rather than malice, it would not be appropriate IMO.
As indicated above, we found many deviations, and most racers were quick (and happy) to bring their cars back into line. There was really only one (maybe two) that in any way might be deserving of the "public outing" you advocate.
An additional and signficant problem with only testing the winners is that depending on the scheduling method you use, the "next in line", or the one after that, might not be easy to identify. With a NASCAR or timed-type race, you have a rank of 1 through XX for how many racers you have and can easily proceed right down the line. But in the case of bracketed races (single, double, or otherwise), esp. if you have several "winners" outed, you will soon be unable to identify the top "legal" winners.
If your desire is just to publicly out "cheaters" (and any boys who cross the line unintentionally from ignorance or poor craftsmanship), you can test only winners and do so (appropriate maybe for adults, NOT for boys at this age).
But if your desire is to have as many boys race legally as possible, and to have a solid set of winners that can withstand scrutiny when the races are done, you must perform the function up front.
Bubba
"Who's Grandpa's neighbor?"... Phil Davis, Down and Derby
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Re: Illegal wheels / mods - BUSTED
And that's the whole point. Some people do deserve better punishment but you do your best to make allowances.Go Bubba Go wrote:There was really only one (maybe two) that in any way might be deserving of the "public outing" you advocate.
I don't agree with the "It alright if you don't get caught" attitudes though.
What lesson are you teaching all those that strived to stay within the rules and didn't do certain things because they thought it might not pass inspection who then go on to see someone who has obviously broken the rules win only because of an oversight on the part of the inspectors?
I'd like to raise my children and tech my scouts that you drive the speed limit ALL the time, not just when there are police and your guilty even if they don't pull you over...
PS: the thing is the ones that really need dealt with are a tiny fraction of the competitors. (2 or 3 out of 500 for the example here.) But can amount to 90% of the trouble during an event.
Last edited by SlartyBartFast on Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Illegal wheels / mods - BUSTED
Beautifully said, and I agree with it 100%. It is a sad and unfortunate part, but the truth is it's the parents who, as you state, "were informed, but ignored the rules". As leaders, we can't necessarily reach the parents, but we CAN hope to reach the kids. Maybe, (and this is a big maybe), but maybe having something like not being allowed to race happen, could be a learning lesson for that child. I want to believe (ok, maybe it's a little optimistic), but I believe that 98-99% of the kids and parents follow the rules. (look at Bubba's post for numbers ), and it's our responsibility to that 98% to see that the rules are enforced. I did recieve several positive comments about enforcing the rules at our district derby this past weekend.pack529holycross wrote: UNFORTUNATELY, I think that we really should as leaders find some way of demonstrating the concept of honest, fair, LEGAL, car construction to parents and scouts without having to have an "enforcement" station for those parents who were informed, but ignored the rules. The concept of " let's see of we can get through inspection without getting caught " is such a horrible premise for participating in a Derby as a parent.
Nicholas
Steve
(ps - I STILL think it's a washer!!! )
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Re: Illegal wheels / mods - BUSTED
Neither do I, I'm not sure how you got "It's alright if you don't get caught" from what I stated above.SlartyBartFast wrote:...I don't agree with the "It alright if you don't get caught" attitudes though.Go Bubba Go wrote:There was really only one (maybe two) that in any way might be deserving of the "public outing" you advocate.
What lesson are you teaching all those that strived to stay within the rules and didn't do certain things because they thought it might not pass inspection who then go on to see someone who has obviously broken the rules win only because of an oversight on the part of the inspectors?
I'd like to raise my children and teach my scouts that you drive the speed limit ALL the time, not just when there are police and your guilty even if they don't pull you over...
The more diligent you are with inspections (the need for diligence was the point of my original post), the rarer the occurence will be when illegal equipment will make it past an inspector. But, in real life, this will still occasionally occur. When this happens, the lesson you teach your children is that they need to follow the rules even when they can't be enforced perfectly. They are not to pursue a "forget the rules, what do the inspectors seem to not be catching that I can get away with" mentality, because in the end they (and you) will know what they have done.
In your example above, you would teach them that they should drive the speed limit ALL the time, not just when there are police and your guilty even if they don't pull you ever... AND even if they see someone (or many someones) else occasionally (or often) get away with it. Whether or not they follow the rules should not depend in any way on whether someone else doesn't and happens to get away with it.
If you think too much illegal stuff is making it through your inspections, to the point that it is becoming disheartening to you or your kids, I believe the answer lies in bolstering the inspections UP FRONT, not in switching to post race inspections and publicly shaming any boy and his dad who have strayed outside the rules intentionally or not (again, some of these folks stray outside the rules from ignorance, and these are kids we are talking about, not grown adults who have a greater capability to understand and conform i.e. craftsmanship to the rules).
IMO the only reason you should be inspecting after the races is to tell you whether your up front inspections are in need of improvement.
Bubba
"Who's Grandpa's neighbor?"... Phil Davis, Down and Derby
Re: Illegal wheels / mods - BUSTED
I agree on early and tighter inspections. Publish the rules, publish some examples of why the rules exist, republish the rules, and then enforce the rules. Hopefully with grace and time that would allow retorfit repairs to occur if needed.
But, I now must also recuse myself from the discussion - as I routinely SPEED down the freeway. Slower traffic please move right.
But, I now must also recuse myself from the discussion - as I routinely SPEED down the freeway. Slower traffic please move right.