Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Discussions on race planning, preparations and how to run a "fair" and fun race.
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pack529holycross
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Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by pack529holycross »

3 Cub Dad wrote:As to other bore mods, how many 8 year olds know the difference between a left handed and right handed tap? Lets get real, you're talking about things the dad's want to do, not the kids.
So, dads shouldn't encourage learning and experimentation? How many 8 year olds knew about COM and how its location affects the cars performace until dad taught them about it?






I feel confident in the premise that rules are designed to not necessarily restrict development, but realistically define development that could reasonably be designed and created by a 7 - 11 year old boy. I concede that there are some brilliant 7-11 year olds out there, quite possibly capable of performing the necessary physics experiments to squeeze out an extra .50 sec out of a car. I concede that there could be at least one boy who is capable of operating a lathe. I concede that there could be at least one boy who is capable of operating a spray booth.

With those concessions in mind, I still think that just because it is HARDER to inspect for something does not mean that the rule is unjust, unfair, or retards competition to the point that it ruins the event. I am always reminded that ANY SCOUT can produce a car that uses ANY technology in what is called the "open" class or "outlaw" class...

Perhaps we could encourage scouts to create TWO cars.... one within the requirements to see just how fast a car can go under the performance-matching restrictions, and a wide open "outlaw" class where weight and dimensions are the only restrictions....
Last edited by pack529holycross on Thu May 15, 2008 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by gpraceman »

pack529holycross wrote:I feel confident in the premise that rules are designed to not necessarily restrict development, but realistically define development that could reasonably be designed and created by a 7 - 11 year old boy.
I would not agree on that point, if this was intended as a general statement about the rules currently in use out there.

There are some of our district rules that were implemented strictly to even the playing field, like mandating a set wheelbase but not requiring the use of the slots (which recognizes that the slots are not always straight). With the Pro Body tool, a similar home-grown drill guide or other creative means, it is easy enough to accomplish straight axles holes without the use of a drill press. So, in this case it was a decision to even the playing field over things that are easy enough to accomplish by the average racer and adult partner. We do also have rules that were intended to prohibit things that would usually be thought to require advanced knowledge or tools.

Maybe you have examined your rules and deem them realistic for the age of the kids involved, but many haven't. Rules should be re-examined each year and updated as necessary to meet the needs of the organization putting on the race (and its racers, of course). Too often, little thought is put into writing the rules and then no one updates them over time. I had a pack show me their rules, which were supposedly taken from our district rules, but did not resemble them in the least. If what they said was true, the rules were years old (over 4 years old).

On a side note, as a recommendation, it would reduce the amount of web page scrolling needed, by quoting specific items instead of an entire long post.
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Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by Darin McGrew »

pack529holycross wrote:I feel confident in the premise that rules are designed to not necessarily restrict development, but realistically define development that could reasonably be designed and created by a 7 - 11 year old boy.
I have a couple quibbles. One is that a derby car isn't a kid's project. It is a kid-oriented project for kids to work on with adults. There's a difference.

The other is that rules can also be designed to keep someone from changing the nature of the project, even if the change is within the capabilities of almost everyone. Sure, a kid could replace the front wheels with skids made from safety pins (we had adults do that before we updated our rules, and it can be quite effective), but that changes the nature of the project.

Of course, reasonable people disagree about what "the nature of the project" really is, so we disagree over whether to ban liquid lubes, reshaped wheels, extended wheelbases, decorative shells attached to a thin wood slab, etc.
pack529holycross wrote:I concede that there could be at least one boy who is capable of operating a lathe. I concede that there could be at least one boy who is capable of operating a spray booth.
Operating a lathe isn't that hard, if you've got someone experienced (the person who owns the lathe, perhaps) to help set it up. Once the piece is spinning, the hard part is going slowly and letting the tool do the work.

And what's so hard about a spray booth? We have several at our workshops. A large cardboard box that's open at one end, a cheap lazy susan with small paper cups to raise the block a couple inches, an assortment of spray paint, a trigger handle that attaches to the cans of spray paint, and a big box of disposable gloves--even our kindergarteners can use a spray booth.
pack529holycross wrote:I am always reminded that ANY SCOUT can produce a car that uses ANY technology in what is called the "open" class or "outlaw" class...
FWIW, not everyone runs an Outlaw class. (Our All Comers class is held to the same rules as the kids' classes.)
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Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by Darin McGrew »

3 Cub Dad wrote:Is there anyone who doesn't believe that a reduced diameter axle with a bushing gives you a competitive advantage over stock???
Do you really need a post-race tear-down inspection to catch something like this?
3 Cub Dad wrote:As to other bore mods, how many 8 year olds know the difference between a left handed and right handed tap? Lets get real, you're talking about things the dad's want to do, not the kids.
<advocate type="devil's">
So do you allow tapped bores, unless they used a left-handed tap on two of the wheels?
</advocate>

But to be honest, we prohibit wheel mods (other than removing manufacturing irregularities), but we don't really bother inspecting for things like tapped wheel bores.
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Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by pack529holycross »

And what's so hard about a spray booth? We have several at our workshops. A large cardboard box that's open at one end, a cheap lazy susan with small paper cups to raise the block a couple inches, an assortment of spray paint, a trigger handle that attaches to the cans of spray paint, and a big box of disposable gloves--even our kindergarteners can use a spray booth.



I was referring to derby cars that come in appearing to have the benefit of a FULL SIZED paint booth - type finish... LOL
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Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by Darin McGrew »

pack529holycross wrote:I was referring to derby cars that come in appearing to have the benefit of a FULL SIZED paint booth - type finish... LOL
I guess I still don't get it. If Dad has a full-sized paint booth, why shouldn't he show Junior how to use it?
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Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by 3 Cub Dad »

Darin McGrew wrote:
3 Cub Dad wrote:Is there anyone who doesn't believe that a reduced diameter axle with a bushing gives you a competitive advantage over stock???
Do you really need a post-race tear-down inspection to catch something like this?
If done well, the only way you will catch this is with a tear down inspection.
Darin McGrew wrote:But to be honest, we prohibit wheel mods (other than removing manufacturing irregularities), but we don't really bother inspecting for things like tapped wheel bores.
Darin,

We didn't feel the need to in the past either. In fact, I still know that at the pack level, we don't need to. It used to be that the rules were published, and if there were infractions, they were unintentional and minor. Unfortunately, as I recently witnessed at district, the "rules", and honesty and integrity are not as valued as they once were. :( I wish it were not so, but that is the reality we're facing. So do we let it go knowing people are breaking the rules and prospering from that, decide that we just accept it and allow everyone the chance to do it, although beyond the abilities of most, or design ways to enforce the rules? I'm not quite ready to throw in the towel on honesty and integrity yet!

Randy,

I do agree that we try to constantly look at our rules for what makes sense, and what gives everyone the same opportunity. In the last 20 years I've run in to too many dad's who couldn't hang a picture of a level straight if you gave them a level to believe that boring out a bore ind inserting a bushing for a lathed axle is within the reach of the majority of scouts or their families. I don't believe that it has to be level competition, but rather a level opportunity. Personally, if it hadn't been for scouts growing up, I never would have had the opportunity to go camping or fishing that has led to the absolutely priceless memories of taking my family on those activities. So when I look at the rules, I'm looking for not only what me and my son's could easily do, but for those in the pack whose dads are STILL looking for a left-handed screwdriver!

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Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by RMoose »

Teeeman,

If this is the last race of the season then I don't see that a post-race teardown should be that big of a problem, but if this will happen with more racing left I would be worried about damaging the cars. I have cracked more than a few trying to remove or reinsert axles over the years so that is a real concern. It's one thing if I tear up my own car, but quite another thing if someone else does it for me!

Also, have you considered how much time this step will add to the length of the event? It seems it will have to be done before final winners are announced and trophies handed out, so it will make the day longer for everyone there. Will only the top 3 be checked, or will more cars be involved? Obviously the more cars the longer this process will take.

If you do disqualify one of the top 3, and then advance the 4th place car to 3rd place, will you then do a post-race teardown on it, or not? It's possible the 4th place car is illegal too. I think everyone will need to be clear on exactly how this procedure will work up front. I could see that senario really adding to the length of the event as well as upsetting people who don't understand what's going on.

Do your rules require use of the slots? If you require use of slots only, you may be able to modify them to require the slots be kept open and clear enough that the majority of the axle shaft can be seen. That may help to spot aftermarket axles without having to take the cars apart.

Not sure of a good way to check inside the wheel bore. You may want to try a dental mirror to look inside the bore. You would probably also need a good light source, maybe a penlight would work. If that works it would be easier and quicker than an after race teardown. However, I'm not sure if it will give you a good enough look to catch cheaters.

Good luck next year whatever you decide to do. It's sad when you have that many people knowingly breaking the rules that you have to resort to post-race inspections. :cry:
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