Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

[Teeeman]

I have given thought to playing with waveform signals from an old oscilloscope I have and seeing if there is a way to get a clear signal distortion from grooved axles...

that varies from a standard...

I don't know what would happen...

Stan suggested actually using a low power transmitter, and pipe a signal through the axle and then receive the signal and graph it...

I am quite sure if the axle is working as an antenna that grooves would cause a difference in broadcast signal of some form...

or I may be way wrong...

it would be wild with modern electronics to build such a contraption into a sealed box and simply have a go/no-go light on it for $10...



I may be pipe dreaming though...

-Terry

[mbb]

why teardown?

If you are really on a witch hunt for liq lubes, just require to observe evidence of graphite (or teflon..hah) at all wheels at checkin time. If in doubt, they have to be witnessed adding more at checkin. I doubt anyone would risk THAT if they wanted to run liq. Any car with graphite will have evidence on it, on the wheel bore area, period.

Who cares if the axles are grooved if running graphite? It is not better.

Require nail tips to be visible to check for the chisel-point that shows they are not lathed speed axles

Lightened wheels, should be OK as long as done by the parent and kid without use of a lathe. Set a min dia. larger than the aftermarket machined wheels, and use calipers to check at weigh in as well. My wheels are turned with the wheel shaver, and are 1.185 dia , Warps are around 1.165 I think. Theres plenty of room there to exclude the machined lightened wheels.

I think a couple easy checks are all thats needed.

The 98% of the scouts whose cars DONT win at the pack and district level arent worried about these things. Probably none of the kids whoe even win are. Remember, these kids are 7-11 yrs old, and are having fun with their dads, which is the real goal. When it gets beyond that point, theres something wrong.

Actually, its a good lesson for life. Theres no way to make it perfectly fair in racing, and no way to completely stop dishonest people from cheating either. For some twisted minds, the reward will always be worth the risk.

[gpraceman]

If you are really on a witch hunt for liq lubes, just require to observe evidence of graphite at all wheels at checkin time. If in doubt, they have to be witnessed adding more at checkin. I doubt anyone would risk THAT if they wanted to run liq. Any car with graphite will have evidence on it, period.

I'm not sure with T's rules, but some rules allow "dry lubes only" as opposed to "graphite only". Some lubes spray on wet, but then dry and would be considered by many to be a dry lube. If that type of lube is allowed, I could not see mandating a lube at check-in.

If you have a "graphite only" rule, then you can mandate the lubing at check-in. However, be prepared for the slow down at check-in and it does not give racers any time to try to break the new graphite in. Another thought on "graphite only" rules, would some consider moly added to the graphite illegal? (tounge in check) Since we want to pick nits, maybe so.

Liquid lubes seem to be the least of T's problems. He's also hunting for ways to detect grooved axles and illegal bore mods at check-in, in a non-destructive manner.

Maybe we should just all mandate that racers come to check-in with the wheels and axles already removed. In a way, I'd prefer that over a post race "looking for cheaters that slipped through inspection" teardown. But, people will howl over that as well.

[Nooby]

In about half the races my son has participated, the rules stated that the race officials would "put a puff of graphite in each wheel".

I'm pretty sure this rule is meant to spoil liquid lubes.

Personally, I don't like the rule, but if people think that liquid lubes are a problem, maybe it works.

[pack529holycross]

If you are really on a witch hunt for liq lubes, just require to observe evidence of graphite at all wheels at checkin time. If in doubt, they have to be witnessed adding more at checkin. I doubt anyone would risk THAT if they wanted to run liq. Any car with graphite will have evidence on it, period.

I'm not sure with T's rules, but some rules allow "dry lubes only" as opposed to "graphite only". Some lubes spray on wet, but then dry and would be considered by many to be a dry lube. If that type of lube is allowed, I could not see mandating a lube at check-in.

If you have a "graphite only" rule, then you can mandate the lubing at check-in. However, be prepared for the slow down at check-in and it does not give racers any time to try to break the new graphite in. Another thought on "graphite only" rules, would some consider moly added to the graphite illegal? (tounge in check) Since we want to pick nits, maybe so.

Liquid lubes seem to be the least of T's problems. He's also hunting for ways to detect grooved axles and illegal bore mods at check-in, in a non-destructive manner.

Maybe we should just all mandate that racers come to check-in with the wheels and axles already removed. In a way, I'd prefer that over a post race "looking for cheaters that slipped through inspection" teardown. But, people will howl over that as well.

I am still going back and forth between PRE and POST race "component" inspection.

My thoughts on the POST RACE idea are that if a parent is aware of the existence of a post race "certification" tear down, and they STILL try to win with illegal items, then they truly deserve the embarrassment of going through the D/Q. I HATE the idea of someone being embarrassed publicly, because I am against that, BUT at the other end of the spectrum I know I cannot FORCE someone to be smart enough to follow the rules and play by them as well. I think that the Winning cars being "certified" is not a slap in the face as a requirement, because I believe that the parents will see this as a strong "line in the sand" against shortcuts, EBAY cars, and other forms of performance manipulation. Additionally, I really like the "Hall of Fame" confiscation of winning cars, clearly preventing them from being reused in the future. This will also give Parents a moment of pause before they plunk down $100 for an EBAY car that will not be usable for parts after the race...

Additionally, THREATENING a tear down might just be enough to clear out the riff-raff in the inspection process.

My Thoughts on the PRE-RACE inspection are much the same - NO parent is going to try to pass lightened wheels or illegal axles when they will be clearly visible to both the inspection team and others in line... the trade off is that Racers will be required to set up their cars "Day Of". I am considering the idea of a test track section of the venue, enclosed within the Pit area, and staggering the start times to give contestants at LEAST an hour of tracktime to tune their cars.

[gpraceman]

My Thoughts on the PRE-RACE inspection are much the same - NO parent is going to try to pass lightened wheels or illegal axles when they will be clearly visible to both the inspection team and others in line... the trade off is that Racers will be required to set up their cars "Day Of". I am considering the idea of a test track section of the venue, enclosed within the Pit area, and staggering the start times to give contestants at LEAST an hour of tracktime to tune their cars.

Having the cars presented at check-in with the wheels and axles off will cause a lot of people to complain. Sure you can more easily inspect for illegal mods, but then you will have to witness the builder mount the wheels to ensure they don't try anything funny. Then you need to allow some time for them to align the wheels and maybe give them some test runs down a track. I can imagine how slow that check-in process will be!

Call me crazy, but I'd still prefer that over a post race witch hunt.

[Darin McGrew]

Additionally, I really like the "Hall of Fame" confiscation of winning cars, clearly preventing them from being reused in the future.

My derby cars are in a display case in my home. I would think that anyone who built a winning car would want to display it in their home too, or at least keep it somewhere safe with other mementos.

Before confiscating winning cars, I think you should consider some other approach. It would be much easier to simply stamp or brand each block with the year and the ID of your unit, and require that the stamp or brand remain visible. (A piece of masking tape can protect it from being accidentally painted over.) If you apply the stamp or brand at several different locations and require that only one remain visible, then you would allow the kids greater flexibility in their design choices. Kids with especially tricky designs could bring their car to a workshop and request a stamp or brand wherever they want.

Presto: no cars from previous years, and no eBay cars either.

[gpraceman]

Before confiscating winning cars, I think you should consider some other approach. It would be much easier to simply stamp or brand each block with the year and the ID of your unit, and require that the stamp or brand remain visible.

I can see that working for someone's local race, but trying to mandate that for an upper level race, like districts or council, would seem very hard to accomplish. In our district, we have a hard enough time getting the packs to just look at the district rules, much less getting them to adopt like rules (or a more stricter version) for their pack race.

I'm not a fan of confiscating winning cars either. I'd rather keep our cars at home and not worry about someone losing the car (like the BSA did with several that were sent in for a national design contest a few years back).

[Darin McGrew]

Before confiscating winning cars, I think you should consider some other approach. It would be much easier to simply stamp or brand each block with the year and the ID of your unit, and require that the stamp or brand remain visible.

I can see that working for someone's local race, but trying to mandate that for an upper level race, like districts or council, would seem very hard to accomplish.

Sorry, I keep forgetting that we're talking about regional derbies.

In that case, I don't think there's anything you can do. Assuming that only the local winners qualify for the regional derby, confiscating the winning cars is even more unattractive. By definition, all the cars there are already winners.

[pack529holycross]

Before confiscating winning cars, I think you should consider some other approach. It would be much easier to simply stamp or brand each block with the year and the ID of your unit, and require that the stamp or brand remain visible.

I can see that working for someone's local race, but trying to mandate that for an upper level race, like districts or council, would seem very hard to accomplish.

Sorry, I keep forgetting that we're talking about regional derbies.

In that case, I don't think there's anything you can do. Assuming that only the local winners qualify for the regional derby, confiscating the winning cars is even more unattractive. By definition, all the cars there are already winners.

Great input - I was just considering two concepts already in practice:

NASCAR - Daytona 500 winner goes right into the Winners Museum, with no loss of participation by race teams knowing that is the process.

Honoring the Winning car - I was thinking that just the ONE winning car in a "hall of fame" would be a bigger display honor than just being displayed at home.

comments?

[gpraceman]

Honoring the Winning car - I was thinking that just the ONE winning car in a "hall of fame" would be a bigger display honor than just being displayed at home.

comments?

It may be seen as an honor, but personally, I would not trust that the car would not get lost. Eventually, I would want my son to get it back. Seeing as there is high turnover of people in BSA, I can easily see something getting lost and no one knowing what happened.

BSA lost several of the cars sent in for the 75th anniversary celebration design contest a few years back. After the contest, they were used as table center pieces for a banquet and the missing cars were either thrown away mistakenly, misplaced or worse yet, taken home as souveniers by those in attendance. Many never got their cars back and BSA did little, it seems, to track the cars down.

So, would you really trust that your son's car will not get lost or thrown away somewhere down the line?

[pack529holycross]

Honoring the Winning car - I was thinking that just the ONE winning car in a "hall of fame" would be a bigger display honor than just being displayed at home.

comments?

It may be seen as an honor, but personally, I would not trust that the car would not get lost. Eventually, I would want my son to get it back. Seeing as there is high turnover of people in BSA, I can easily see something getting lost and no one knowing what happened.

BSA lost several of the cars sent in for the 75th anniversary celebration design contest a few years back. After the contest, they were used as table center pieces for a banquet and the missing cars were either thrown away mistakenly, misplaced or worse yet, taken home as souveniers by those in attendance. Many never got their cars back and BSA did little, it seems, to track the cars down.

So, would you really trust that your son's car will not get lost or thrown away somewhere down the line?

My vision would be a giant glass display case at the Council Level Offices. Our Council is planning a huge new complex to be built in the next two years, so the idea of including a "PWD Hall Of Fame" is attractive for sure... I agree that securing cars is a big issue... food for thought.

[Darin McGrew]

Honoring the Winning car - I was thinking that just the ONE winning car in a "hall of fame" would be a bigger display honor than just being displayed at home.

"Gramma, look at my derby car! Dad helped me build it, and we won third place!"

Where do you think that car was displayed? At home, or at the council office?

[Teeeman]

OK, I have one last thing to throw in:


Suggest a post race tear down... a bunch of weeks prior to any race that might use it...

THOROUGHLY explain the BAD


explain the good too.


Take a vote.


Let the racers decide.


If this sounds like a fair idea, would you guys help critique the Pro/Con letter draft?

-T

[3 Cub Dad]

T-

I'd be happy to help.

Steve