Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

[pack529holycross]

T-

I'd be happy to help.

Steve

as would I.. I haven't gotten to that section in my draft structure. So far I have done wheels, axles, lubrication, and bodies.

[Teeeman]

I'll try to create a reasonably brief letter of some kind and send to you guys...

I'll have to think about the approach a bit...


I need to explain some basics in it, i.e. what is alignment and why it matters and why it takes time, etc.
(so many folks don't even know you can align a car!)

-Terry

[gpraceman]

Call me crazy, but I'd still prefer that over a post race witch hunt.

I should clarify the "witch hunt" comment. It was not intended as a personal jab at Teeeman. It was a jab at the concept of a post race inspection. I have heard of other races doing a post race inspeciton and have never liked the concept. It has the potential of damaging a car, especially with tight fitting slots (or holes) and if the axles are glued in. It can also make for a lot of re-alignment work for the builders, if they are being advanced to an upper level race.

A post race inspection just really strikes me as a hunt for cheaters, thus the witch hunt analogy. It seems to say "We couldn't catch you cheating at check-in, so we'll catch you after you have won something!" Guilty until proven innocent (harsh, but very true). Whereas, IMO a pre-race inspection is not looking for guilt or innocence, just compliance.

[pack529holycross]

Call me crazy, but I'd still prefer that over a post race witch hunt.

I should clarify the "witch hunt" comment. It was not intended as a personal jab at Teeeman. It was a jab at the concept of a post race inspection. I have heard of other races doing a post race inspeciton and have never liked the concept. It has the potential of damaging a car, especially with tight fitting slots (or holes) and if the axles are glued in. It can also make for a lot of re-alignment work for the builders, if they are being advanced to an upper level race.

A post race inspection just really strikes me as a hunt for cheaters, thus the witch hunt analogy. It seems to say "We couldn't catch you cheating at check-in, so we'll catch you after you have won something!" Guilty until proven innocent (harsh, but very true). Whereas, IMO a pre-race inspection is not looking for guilt or innocence, just compliance.

respectfully, in actual racing such as NASCAR, the car is inspected - cleared for racing - wins - and is re-inspected to insure that nothing was used during the race that constitutes illegal or prohibited practices. The post race inspection "certifies" that the race was won within the specs.

The EXISTENCE of the post race inspection becomes a deterrent to the potential for fraud by giving someone tempted to sneak something by the initial inspection a reason to pause and realize that simply burying the business end of a non-bsa axle in the car body, for example, will NOT gaurantee that the fraud will not be seen. I agree that post-race tear down reverses the time spent on set up, but if there are no other "higher-level" races beyond district, then that arguement cannot be made.

Additionally, the existence of a post-race inspection will become a consideration in the design of the car. I.E. the use of the BSA Axle Guards would be a great way to design a car that can be aligned and race-prepped, without ANY potential for damage in a post-race inspection.

There must be some type of deterrent in place, strong enough to "help" parents avoid " temptation " ( putting it in the kindest possible words ).

[gpraceman]

respectfully, in actual racing such as NASCAR, the car is inspected - cleared for racing - wins - and is re-inspected to insure that nothing was used during the race that constitutes illegal or prohibited practices. The post race inspection "certifies" that the race was won within the specs.

As I stated before, this is not NASCAR. These are not professionals competing in these kids races.

The EXISTENCE of the post race inspection becomes a deterrent to the potential for fraud by giving someone tempted to sneak something by the initial inspection a reason to pause

Sure, it may end up being a deterrent, but it still smacks of we're trying to catch you cheating after the race because we couldn't catch you before the race. Of course, that is my opinion.

I.E. the use of the BSA Axle Guards would be a great way to design a car that can be aligned and race-prepped, without ANY potential for damage in a post-race inspection.

How do those eliminate the potential for damage? If the slots are plenty tight, removing the guards will not ensure that the slot will not get damaged when pulling out the axle.

There must be some type of deterrent in place, strong enough to "help" parents avoid " temptation " ( putting it in the kindest possible words ).

Again, I assert that the deterrent is a good check-in inspection along with enforceable rules.

[pack529holycross]

respectfully, in actual racing such as NASCAR, the car is inspected - cleared for racing - wins - and is re-inspected to insure that nothing was used during the race that constitutes illegal or prohibited practices. The post race inspection "certifies" that the race was won within the specs.

As I stated before, this is not NASCAR. These are not professionals competing in these kids races.

The EXISTENCE of the post race inspection becomes a deterrent to the potential for fraud by giving someone tempted to sneak something by the initial inspection a reason to pause

Sure, it may end up being a deterrent, but it still smacks of we're trying to catch you cheating after the race because we couldn't catch you before the race. Of course, that is my opinion.

I.E. the use of the BSA Axle Guards would be a great way to design a car that can be aligned and race-prepped, without ANY potential for damage in a post-race inspection.

How do those eliminate the potential for damage? If the slots are plenty tight, removing the guards will not ensure that the slot will not get damaged when pulling out the axle.

There must be some type of deterrent in place, strong enough to "help" parents avoid " temptation " ( putting it in the kindest possible words ).

Again, I assert that the deterrent is a good check-in inspection along with enforceable rules.

I personally would prefer to have the car unassembled at check in, so that wheels can be weighed and axles certified. I also know that the disadvantages to preventing tuning of the car until day-of as problematic.

PERHAPS... a day before certification / tune up session, with axles and wheels off car for inspection, and 3 hours of tune up time to get your car right, then impound the cars on site till the morning? that would absolutely work in my venue, because it is right across the street from my house, and overnight will not be an issue.

[Teeeman]

It would be easy to catch cheating before the race, but it would mean pre race tear down… this penalizes the non cheating racers out of doing their best as there won’t be time for them at a race (hours required) to realign their cars.

A post race tear down is not at all a “witch hunt”. It is simply the conclusion of a thorough inspection that is required to catch the cheating... that is completed in 2 parts due to the above.

There is a less important tertiary benefit to performing a post race inspection ONLY on winners… it saves time. It is pointless after the race to spend the extra time to inspect cars that are not in contention for awards… even if they are illegal, the main point that a legal racer was not deprived of their award by a cheating racer is still accomplished. Sorta poetic justice to if a legal car beats a cheating car (grin!).

Broken down to more simple words:

a) gotta tear down to complete the thoroughness of inspection necessary to catch the cheating
b) do it after the race so legal cars were allowed to be fully tuned well in advance of the race
c) post race inspection of only top winners reduces the number of cars that must be checked and still accomplishes the main goal: no child that competed legally is deprived of their award by someone else who cheated


-Terry

[3 Cub Dad]

Broken down to more simple words:

a) gotta tear down to complete the thoroughness of inspection necessary to catch the cheating
b) do it after the race so legal cars were allowed to be fully tuned well in advance of the race
c) post race inspection of only top winners reduces the number of cars that must be checked and still accomplishes the main goal: no child that competed legally is deprived of their award by someone else who cheated

Well stated Teeman

[ncnightmare]

T, you are saying that you can't change the rules because they have been in effect for a long time. Creating a post race inspection would be "changing the rules". If you are willing to hear people scream over that then why not just make it easier and do what Randy is telling you. Get rid of the absurd rules that are constantly binding the kids and are impossible to enforce. Make the inspection process easier. Save time for everyone and people will be happier. Kids want to see cars go FAST! Learn how to build a fast car. Teach anyone who wants to take the time to learn and then go race. Easy as that. There will always be somebody complaining because of one reason or another. On the other hand... do it your way, it is your race and your time being put into it.

One other thing... Hob-E-Lube IS faster than oil and works better on GROOVED axles!

One more other thing... you must be CRAZY even muttering the words remove the wheels at pre race inspection!

[Nooby]

I agree with Teeman that post race inspection could be a valuable tool in an environment where cheating is rampant. The teardown, or threat of teardown would change behavior - but it would have to be clearly communicated so that it has the desired effect before the race.

However, I think that "cheating" allegations will always be leveled against the winner - regardless of how much more time and effort they put into the car.

My sons car won every race at the pack level (some pretty closely). We heard some rumblings from one person in particular. For districts, we discovered rail riding and tuned with a test track. We were able to improve our results over .1 seconds - almost 2 car lengths by my calculations. Next year, I am confident that we (2 sons this time) could beat a similar group of cars (not highly competitive) by a very wide margin. I'm sure that someone will say that we cheated and I would welcome a teardown to prove them wrong.

[3 Cub Dad]

I would say that the post race tear down inspection would focus on 3 issues:

1. Axle mods: grooves and diameter
2. Axle treatment: Dry lube vs. wet lube
3. Bore treatment: bushings, grooves, tapering

One of the rationales put forward by gp and nc is that if you can't inspect for these without a teardown, eliminate theses rules and allow them, (please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth)

Before we go there, can we talk about the reasons behind these rules? Specifically #'s 1 & 3, we'll come back to 2.

Is there anyone who doesn't believe that a reduced diameter axle with a bushing gives you a competitive advantage over stock??? Ok, so it's advantageous, so what? So is an aggressive COM. (yes, I'm carrying on a conversation with myself!) Is this something that MOST 8-9 year old scouts could understand or perform? (notice MOST, there is always AN exception like the 12yearold who just graduated college) Even the adult leagues (sorry Randy ) outlaw bushings and reduced axles except in the most advanced class! Why? Because they give a huge performance advantage and are beyond the capabilities of most individuals to create and therefore must be purchased. If these are beyond the capabilities of the average adult racer, allowing them in a scout race because a couple of the adults want to do it, not the kids, makes no sense.

As to other bore mods, how many 8 year olds know the difference between a left handed and right handed tap? Lets get real, you're talking about things the dad's want to do, not the kids.

As to liquid lube vs dry lube. Personally I'm still on the fence. I would like to see scientific data on the STATIC friction of the different lubes. I know from visual observance that it appears that the static friction of the liquid lubes is less than the static friction of the dry lubes. This gives the liquid lube a jump off the line. Like I said, my personal thoughts are still mired on this topic, but the suggestion that one could go to Wally World and use 3-n-1 oil and compete against Krytox 100 is not really realistic!

So it comes down to, do you allow things that even the adult leagues don't allow except for the most advanced cases where the cars can cost in excess of $60 on parts alone, or do you keep the rules set to the abilities and capabilities of 99.99% of the competitors. (notice I said the competitors, not the competitor's dads!)

If you keep the rules at the competitor level, how do you ensure that all are following the rules? From recent anecdotal evidence, the number of "dads" willing to knowingly break these rules for whatever reason is sadly greater than we would have believed. Or, throw out these rules, and let the few dads who are over the top, (I included myself in that group!), make sure that the other scouts really don't have a chance of being truly competitive or winning?

[Teeeman]

T, you are saying that you can't change the rules because they have been in effect for a long time. Creating a post race inspection would be "changing the rules". If you are willing to hear people scream over that then why not just make it easier and do what Randy is telling you. Get rid of the absurd rules that are constantly binding the kids and are impossible to enforce. Make the inspection process easier. Save time for everyone and people will be happier. Kids want to see cars go FAST! Learn how to build a fast car. Teach anyone who wants to take the time to learn and then go race. Easy as that. There will always be somebody complaining because of one reason or another. On the other hand... do it your way, it is your race and your time being put into it.

One other thing... Hob-E-Lube IS faster than oil and works better on GROOVED axles!

One more other thing... you must be CRAZY even muttering the words remove the wheels at pre race inspection!

This is beat to death…

re-read the posts and you’ll see my rationale for all I’ve said.


Stating that your view is the right one and anything disagreeing is absurd is quite erred.


Love to see that DATA you have on Hob-E-Lube and grooves beating oils.



-T

Oh yeah... we've built some fast cars already... we know how to build them faster but then they'd be illegal per our rules.

[gpraceman]

Come on guys, we can disagree without personal jabs flying.

[Teeeman]

Come on guys, we can disagree without personal jabs flying.

Very much agreed.


Maybe time to lock this one down?


-T

[gpraceman]

Maybe time to lock this one down?

And stop the fun? Seriously, I do think that this has been an important discussion. Maybe other race coordinators have contemplated a post race inspection or implemented one. It is good to hear all of the pros and cons. I would be very interested to hear from someone that had to go through one and get their view.

Before we go there, can we talk about the reasons behind these rules? Specifically #'s 1 & 3, we'll come back to 2.
...

I do think that it boils down to the reasons behind the rules. Are they really meant to even the playing field or to forbid what is considered beyond the capability or budget of many? Rules can accomplish one or both (or at least try to). Are there low tech ways to alter a wheel or axle to improve performance? Of course there are. I can only see forbiding those items if the intent is to even the playing field. I'm more apt to allow a mod if it can be accomplished with low tech means. Some will stick hard and fast to keeping the playing field even and not allow those mods. Both tacts are fine, as long as we stick to the intent of the rule, make that intent clear, and make sure that the rule is enforceable. Too many, though, (not directed at anyone in particular) don't examine the intent of their rules, which leads to things being open to interpretation or not properly inspected for or a rule that no longer serves the original intent.

Even the adult leagues (sorry Randy )

BTW, I'm not opposed to people mentioning leagues, just talking about league business here on DT or people fishing for new league members.

As to other bore mods, how many 8 year olds know the difference between a left handed and right handed tap? Lets get real, you're talking about things the dad's want to do, not the kids.

So, dads shouldn't encourage learning and experimentation? How many 8 year olds knew about COM and how its location affects the cars performace until dad taught them about it?

Like I said, my personal thoughts are still mired on this topic, but the suggestion that one could go to Wally World and use 3-n-1 oil and compete against Krytox 100 is not really realistic!

So, you think there isn't some locally available lube that could not make a car highly competitive, even against liquid lubes? With lubes, performance can be highly affected by its application (there have been many discussions on DT about this), so could there be a lube and application method combo that someone could hit upon without going to an online supplier? I think so. Who knows, maybe combing two different lubes will lead to better performance than each alone (graphite w/moly is an example - though some will argue that moly helps). So, I am more inclined to let people experiment than to have a rule that stiffles that opportunity.

Some will want a even playing field, so they will restrict what lubes can be done. Now, if you are forbiding liquid lubes solely because of fear for fouling the track, then there is an easy to implement countermeasure that will remove that concern and allow for greater experimentation for the racers.

Again, I have to wonder why so few are concerned about graphite fouling the track? I guess they have become so used to it or it is just something that is expected. Since we have implemented our no excess lube rule (any lube) and watch for it at check-in, we have had a much cleaner track. Before that, we were cleaning up gobs of graphite.

or do you keep the rules set to the abilities and capabilities of 99.99% of the competitors. (notice I said the competitors, not the competitor's dads!)

If that is your goal, I think it will be very hard to accomplish without some drastic measures to ensure there is truly an even playing field. Give everyone a wedge, 4 wheels and axles, some weight, a few tools and lock them in a room to build (supervised, of course), and then go straight to racing. That is unreasonable and/or unrealistic to many, so you will not end up with a totally even playing field.