Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

[Teeeman]

I am not the only upset person from this weekend.

Some other folks have already started contacting high level Scouting folks.

Not just in how the race was run either, but the greater than 25% cheating found in inspection is also leading to a new drive to enforce post race tear downs of winning cars.


I have not supported post race tear down before but I think I do now.

So if it is in the rules that if you trophy you have to pass a mandatory inspection (not a "only if someone complains")... everybody...

then don't glue in your axles and YES, you will have to rework the car before the next race. That will be the breaks.

And for those who would cry "not fair", blame the guys who are doing the cheating, not the judges and rule writers.

Least from the race results we caught most of them this weekend... I think we may have missed a couple, but for the most part we had the field grouped as one might expect from highly competitive Council cars all built to the same rules using the same laws of physics on the same track.

-T

[Darin McGrew]

So, what rules violations will a post-race tear-down catch that cannot be caught by a pre-race inspection?

[Teeeman]

Axle grooves, liquid lubes and illegal bore mods

[Darin McGrew]

Are any of these worth prohibiting?

Why ban liquid lubes? Kids can understand the idea behind using better lubricants, and better lubricants aren't exactly hard to obtain.

And do axle grooves or bore modifications really provide a significant advantage?

[3 Cub Dad]

T,

I'm beginning to agree with the thought of post race tear down, as long as the cars are not impounded before the next race.

One point I would like to make. I've heard several people complain about that you could damage the car if the axles have been glued in or epoxied. Sorry, but it's simply not true. IF you try to simply pull the axle out, yes you could damage the car. You take a pair of needle nose pliers covered in electrical tape and TURN the axle in the hole or slot. The torque easily overcomes the seal, and the the axle can be pulled easily. We did this on three cars post pack race. Two epoxied and one superglue. No issues.

Since you cannot inspect for grooved axles, bushings, or liquid lube without this, I don't see how we keep from doing it.

The rules clearly say no lightened wheels, yet we still see 1g wheels, (still want to know who at BSA is secretly putting Warps wheels into these kits! )

The rules say not bought cars, still caught an ebay car at district.

The rules say no grooves, no bushings and no liquid lubes, so of course we believe that everyone will follow THAT rule.

[Teeeman]

I'll address your new question after first saying the rules were the rules and we were to abide by them, whether folks agreed with them or not.


Now, why ban liquid lube?

If they get on the track a puddle presents a problem for subsequent cars... and a film presents a problem as well... so even wiping the track between every run is a bad idea.

A car with a very aggressive COM needs anti-wiggle countermeasures in the alignment and thus to work needs as much wheel to track traction as it can get.


But back to my point, whether you agree with a rule or not is a separate matter.

I am pointing to enforcing a long accepted rule and how to do it.

-T

[Teeeman]

T,

I'm beginning to agree with the thought of post race tear down, as long as the cars are not impounded before the next race.

One point I would like to make. I've heard several people complain about that you could damage the car if the axles have been glued in or epoxied. Sorry, but it's simply not true. IF you try to simply pull the axle out, yes you could damage the car. You take a pair of needle nose pliers covered in electrical tape and TURN the axle in the hole or slot. The torque easily overcomes the seal, and the the axle can be pulled easily. We did this on three cars post pack race. Two epoxied and one superglue. No issues.

Since you cannot inspect for grooved axles, bushings, or liquid lube without this, I don't see how we keep from doing it.

The rules clearly say no lightened wheels, yet we still see 1g wheels, (still want to know who at BSA is secretly putting Warps wheels into these kits! )

The rules say not bought cars, still caught an ebay car at district.

The rules say no grooves, no bushings and no liquid lubes, so of course we believe that everyone will follow THAT rule.

Yep!

Or, just make sure folks know that they must remove the wheels and axles if they are a top finisher... and build accordingly, help (as always in my garage or via e-mail) available on how to build a car that can have the axles/wheels removed without damage.

And very clear and good issue with impound: Impound would no longer be possible unless you had a "post race rework" meeting for those who needed it which would be supervised by race judges.

There are ways to get around the problems with a post race tear down.

Getting folks to like it though is a moot point... nobody is going to like it.

Sad that I see it though a looming necessity in order to have fair races.

Else, we say "laissez faire" and let the unethical folks rule the day, laughing at all the meek sheep who chose to abide by the rules... with their "might makes right!" t-shirts worn proudly as they push their way to the front of the inspection line...

(OK, that last paragraph was sarcastic for sure!)

-T

[Darin McGrew]

So what's the real problem? I think that the best solution to the "problem" of illegal lubricants is simply to allow any lubricant that doesn't make a mess.

To me, a post-race tear-down seems like a solution looking for a problem.

So how much does a post-race tear-down delay the presentation of the final awards? The race is over and the results have been determined, but first everyone has to wait for the race officials to tear-down the winning cars. How long is the wait? Do the car owners get to observe the inspection? What if there are disagreements over what the post-race tear-down reveals?

[Teeeman]

So what's the real problem? I think that the best solution to the "problem" of illegal lubricants is simply to allow any lubricant that doesn't make a mess.

To me, a post-race tear-down seems like a solution looking for a problem.

So how much does a post-race tear-down delay the presentation of the final awards? The race is over and the results have been determined, but first everyone has to wait for the race officials to tear-down the winning cars. How long is the wait? Do the car owners get to observe the inspection? What if there are disagreements over what the post-race tear-down reveals?

I think none of the points you make have more importance than having a fair race.

I stand firm on a post race teardown is something we need to consider locally and I will begin to promote...

unless someone can produce a way to check the same technical issues on a car without tear down.

If you can provide those solutions then I would agree the post tear down is not needed.

BUT until... I stand that it is needed... as I consider having a fair race far more important than any of the nits you have addressed.

-T

[gpraceman]

It seems like a knee jerk reaction to start advocating post race tear downs.

I do think that a review of the rules should be part of the process of trying to have a better race next year, as well as examining the inspection process. Are there some things that are not allowed that should really be re-examined?

I'll pick on one rule as an example, not allowing liquid lubes. What is the reason behind the rule? It certainly isn't that the average person doesn't have access to a variety of lubes. In a nut shell, it is really fear of "fouling the track" (so, why are so few people worried about fouling the track with graphite?)

Our district rules were rewritten three years ago to allow liquid lubes. Since implementation, we have not had one single problem with liquid lubes fouling the track at any of the races that our pack runs for other packs or at the district race (which we have run each year since the rule change). A good part of it is that during inspection, we do demand that any excess lube be cleaned off before the car will be checked in. That includes excess graphite! We do also spell it out in the rules about excess lube not being allowed (any lube). It is not really making the inspectors job any harder, since they are already looking hard at the wheels and axles. Too much liquid lube is very easy to spot, so is too much graphite.

Another example valid for many rules that I have seen (I'm not saying it applies in your case Teeeman), is the requirement of having the wheel tread flat on the track (for those wheels touching the track). Our district had this rule up until this year. It caused some heartburn with one parent at last year's race, since the winner of one of the age groups ended up with canted wheels. So, we did examine the rule and could see scenarios where wheels were not canted before the race but could have become canted during the race (rough stops, rough handling, loose axles). We also noted that for a novice builder, it wasn't always so easy for them to get the axles in nice and straight.

In one example, there was a valid concern, but there is also an easy to implement countermeasure for that concern. For the other example, we had a rule that could get inadvertently violated after check-in and the rule was putting unnecessary demands on the racers. The result of changing these two rules is that racers in our district have more latitude in what they can try, it is easier for a novice builder to comply with the rules, the inspector's job has become easier, and there have been fewer conflicts regarding compliance with the rules.

So, don't overlook a serious look at the rules and the reasons behind those rules. I do, of course, understand that there are some things (like lightened wheels that are not so cut and dry), but don't make the race harder on the racers than necessary, don't make it harder on the inspectors, and don't add more potential for conflict. I think a teradown inspection makes things harder for everyone and adds potential for conflict.

[Teeeman]

I have been discussing this idea for 2 years. That is not a knee jerk reaction, trust me.

I am just surprised to have other folks here suggesting instead of me for once.

Harsh, yes.

Necessary, to have a fair race, yes.

Unless someone can tell me how to inspect for grooves and liquid lube and bore mods without pulling an axle.

Re-read my points above on liquid lube. That is the rationale that prevails amongst the folks here locally with respect to liquid lubes and why they are outlawed.

My whole predicate for this post is how to enforce the rules we have.

There is nothing wrong with questioning the rules... trust me, I'm quite versed in questioning rules.

But for the purpose of this thread I am trying to focus on how to enforce the rules, not in dodging that difficult topic by diverting discussion to questioning the rules.

I have given this a lot of thought and disappointingly if we stick to the rules we have, I see no other method of enforcement to prevent folks from cheating the literally thousands of other boys who didn't cheat out of a fair and equal chance to win.

And if I have learned anything in the last 2 years and even Saturday as a tan-shirt leader lied his butt off about the origins of their lightened wheels to my face...

Scout Honor takes 2nd seat to winning at any cost for a lot of folks.

I'm out to do something about it if I can, rather than say 'well, that is tough and sad and wish it weren't the case... but what can we do, we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or make the race last 10 minutes longer'.




-T

[gpraceman]

I think a big part of your whole problem stems from unenforceable rules. I realize you are just trying to enforce the rules that you have been given. However, if it is not easy enough to enforce, without destructive testing (like a teardown inspection), then the rule is ridiculous and needs to be junked.

Unless someone can tell me how to inspect for grooves and liquid lube and bore mods without pulling an axle.

Inspecting for bore mods, axles grooves and liquid lubes? That really seems to be an excercise in futility. I think you already know that, yet you still seem to be holding out some hope that there is a way to do so.

Necessary, to have a fair race, yes.

Treat the cause, not the symptom. Breakdown inspections is not treating the cause and is NOT "necessary". IMO, that will just make your race go even more downhill and cause even more heartburn with people.

[Teeeman]

I think a big part of your whole problem stems from unenforceable rules. I realize you are just trying to enforce the rules that you have been given. However, if it is not easy enough to enforce, without destructive testing (like a teardown inspection) then the rule is ridiculous and needs to be junked.

Unless someone can tell me how to inspect for grooves and liquid lube and bore mods without pulling an axle.

Inspecting for bore mods, axles grooves and liquid lubes? That really seems to be an excercise in futility. I think you already know that, yet you still seem to be holding out some hope that there is a way to do so.

Necessary, to have a fair race, yes.

Treat the cause, not the symptom. Breakdown inspections is not treating the cause and is NOT "necessary". IMO, that will just make your race go even more downhill and cause even more heartburn with people.

I agree then to disagree with you.

-T

[gpraceman]

I agree then to disagree with you.

Good luck to you all then. Hopefully, people won't get so fed up and decide not to have the race at all. If the fun is taken out of the race, then it is not worth having or participating in.

[Teeeman]

I agree then to disagree with you.

Good luck to you all then. Hopefully, people won't get so fed up and decide not to have the race at all. If the fun is taken out of the race, then it is not worth having or participating in.

Now that I agree with.

And a race that is not fair is not fun.

If we try to make it fair and that takes the fun away...

then the guys who cheat have ruined it for us all.



-T