Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

[gpraceman]

And a race that is not fair is not fun.

If we try to make it fair and that takes the fun away...

then the guys who cheat have ruined it for us all.

But how far in making a race fair is going too far? Enforcing unenforceable rules is going too far in my book. So, is a breakdown inspection. Neither addresses the root cause (bad rules).

[Teeeman]

And a race that is not fair is not fun.

If we try to make it fair and that takes the fun away...

then the guys who cheat have ruined it for us all.

But how far in making a race fair is going too far? Enforcing unenforceable rules is going too far in my book. So, is a breakdown inspection. Neither addresses the root cause (bad rules).

Again, I disagree.

I feel you do what it takes to make it fair and that is the price of having a fair race.

Rules aren't bad if enforced.

Rules that have sound rationale aren't bad rules.

Opinions vary on all the above.

-T

[Go Bubba Go]

I agree then to disagree with you.

Good luck to you all then. Hopefully, people won't get so fed up and decide not to have the race at all. If the fun is taken out of the race, then it is not worth having or participating in.

FWIW I am really not a fan of post race tear downs for Cub Scout races at all.

My gut is that any rule which could not be detected at check-in should be eliminated. The exception to that might be modifications that you knew the average (or above average) Cub Scout and his partner just aren't capable of performing... i.e. the "It's for the boys, not the vendors" exception.

Want to groove your axles... why not. Should be within the abilities of a Cub and dad to perform.

Liquid lubes... why not. If you are trying to avoid excess, define and outlaw excess (oil or graphite).

Tap / groove your bores... why not. See note on axles above.

Unless you limit any post-race teardown DQ's to blatant, unambiguous violations, you really run the risk of it getting out of hand (i.e. how deep does a file scratch have to be in an axle before it is considered a "groove"...). And you'll need to make sure the post race inspection gear and the pre race inspection gear are the same gear, and well calibrated.

I guess if you can't get the 3 rules above changed you might proceed in the direction of a post race teardown, but IMO your gonna have to walk pretty circumspectly if you do.

Could I see a Teeeman pulling something like this off carefully and fairly, quite likely. With your average set of "weekend warrior" organizers (the kind that show up with a plastic track and "crash 'em, smash 'em" stop section), I would expect a cat fight "personality exchange" of a mess.

Good luck.

Bubba

[Teeeman]

If you can't inspect the bores and axles then yes, you would have to say anything goes inside them...

this would include narrowed (thinned) axles and bushings in the wheels.

I agree a dad and son CAN groove axles. Quite easily actually.


So, make sure I got this right...

an anything goes WRT the bores/axles/lube is better than having a post race teardown?

Remember, my whole predicate was the rules have rationale and have been in use for a long time and folks don't want to change them...

but I'll deviate since that point of this thread is apparently not getting through (I had hoped someone had some crafty way, again, of spotting these things and I totally disagree with an earlier comment that this is not possible as it is something we simply haven't figured out yet but certainly is possible)...

So, anything goes vs tear down... ?

-T

[3 Cub Dad]

I'll pick on one rule as an example, not allowing liquid lubes. What is the reason behind the rule? It certainly isn't that the average person doesn't have access to a variety of lubes. In a nut shell, it is really fear of "fouling the track"

Are any of these worth prohibiting?

Why ban liquid lubes? Kids can understand the idea behind using better lubricants, and better lubricants aren't exactly hard to obtain.

And do axle grooves or bore modifications really provide a significant advantage?

I think that the best solution to the "problem" of illegal lubricants is simply to allow any lubricant that doesn't make a mess.

Randy and Darin,

These are both strawman arguements at best and I really think they miss the point and you may be too involved to look at it from the outside.

1. Access, easy to obtain???? yea, for $18.95 plus shipping you can order Krytox from MaxV. If that's the barometer, than razor wheels and needle axles meet the exact same criteria. I live in a fairly decent sized metropolitan area, I know that Tee does too, so have the Scout shops or Wally World, or HobbyTown USA or Ben Franklin or Michaels started carrying Nyoil? For the 98% of kids and families that want to be involved and competitive, these are not "easily available". You cannot run out and pick them up the week before the race.

2. Do axle grooves or bore modifications make a difference? Are you serious? Tell you what, you take a standard BSA wheel and axle, no modifications, polish and lube with graphite, and let me start with the same wheels and axles but allow me to put in metal bushings, and modify the axle at will, and use liquid lubes. All other things being equal, if I spotted you a car length I would probably still win by 2 feet.

3. Is liquid lube an advantage? Interesting discussion. However, if you take a look at what the big boys run over at WIRL or PWDRacing, they're all running liquid lubes. WHY???? (I've been watching because I want to get involved, but until I can figure out the white disks are that they're so secretive about I figure I can't be competitive. Sorry Randy, I know you don't want to talk about the leagues, just talking about the people who go ALL out, insist on the liquid lubes)

4. Fouling the track..... If applied properly then it's no issue..... hmmm, applied properly, at a scout event. No problem there? For liquids, a "bump" test won't work. Until that wheel is spinning at 1000rpms, we won't know what will spin out of the bore.

5. If the "problem" is they're illegal, or we can't inspect for them ahead of time, just make them legal??? Not to go overboard, (maybe a little ) but isn't this the same arguement that comes up every year about legalizing drugs? We have rules. We are teaching and are founded on honesty, integrity, ethics, and fairplay. These two thoughts just don't seem to match at all!

6. Fair competition. What do you think most turns off a child and a family from wanting to be part of the race and derby, would it be because they can only use dry lubes, or because they do their best but don't know about the $20 lube, or $30 wheels, and they can't even come close to the same car that wins all the time? Just take a look at some of the posts in the past few days about the district where the same car has been run for the past several years, or the post about how the individual used liquid lube on the axles but made it look like graphite was on the bore to fool the inspectors. We had a brand new Tiger and scout family this year, come to the workshops, build and test their car, and take home a 4th place trophy. Who gets hurt by not allowing liquid lube? The one or two kids and families who are REALLY into PWD, (like me), who know they could get just a little more speed if it was allowed. Who gets hurt if you do allow it? All the other scouts who are not as in to it as us, who want to race, but will never be competitive.

I believe in equal playing fields. I believe in competition. I believe in enforcement of rules. I have also, unfortunately, come to believe that we have too many individuals in today's society that believe that rules shouldn't apply to them, that intentionally try to break the rules. (think of the overage pitcher in the Little League World Series that cost his team the title) If you want to race without rules, go where that's allowed. At least you'll face equal competition. Since the preponderance of the evidence is that people are cheating, additional measures such as post-race inspection of axles and bores must be considered.

Don't know if it will be approved in my district, but it will be discussed.

[gpraceman]

Rules aren't bad if enforced.

Rules that have sound rationale aren't bad rules.

Rules are bad if they are not reasonably enforceable. The rationale behind those rules seems to have ignored the reasonable enforcement part. I think they also ignore that some of these mods are very easily accomplished by the average racer, as Bubba pointed out.

Sorry to say T, but it seems that you are resolved to tightening rules and making inspections more stringent than to challenging bad rules.

[Teeeman]

Rules aren't bad if enforced.

Rules that have sound rationale aren't bad rules.

Rules are bad if they are not reasonably enforceable. The rationale behind those rules seems to have ignored the reasonable enforcement part. I think they also ignore that some of these mods are very easily accomplished by the average racer, as Bubba pointed out.

Sorry to say T, but it seems that you are resolved to tightening rules and making inspections more stringent than to challenging bad rules.

Your opinion the rules are bad is not shared by me.

I am addressing how to enforce these rules.

So, free for all in the rules vs tear down... where do you stand?

My understanding is you are for a free for all... so the rules should state clearly or simply fail to state anything that prohibits mods to the wheel bores, axles or choice of lube.

Free for all vs tear down... I see one or the other as the outcome unless we find a passive way to inspect wheel bores/axles and lube.

-T

[Go Bubba Go]

If you can't inspect the bores and axles then yes, you would have to say anything goes inside them...

this would include narrowed (thinned) axles and bushings in the wheels...

-T

So for the sake of argument, and knowing that you live in the land of "rocket scientists", let's assume that one of your Council members is showing up with thinned axles and bushing inserts that are not visible externally to the naked eye. (actually think I have a couple good ideas on how to do this... probably shouldn't publish them for all to see...).

Knowing my extreme aversion for post-race teardowns (understand, IMO Pandora's box is just too easily opened wide on this one and there are lots of potential downsides), I'd probably be heading down to the "U Spy" store (not sure if you have those in AL) to look into the latest in fiber optic cameras for a little bore peeky peeky - shown on large screen TV for all to see. Don't see a continuous line of axle from inside out to the hub, time for a selective pull of the axle by the owner (our rules allow this, but it is rarely practiced as there is no good criteria to prompt one to do it). In this case you would be asking him to pull based on reasonable suspicion of violation and looking for something in particular, not just "open season" on the car that wins.

Or maybe borrow an MRI machine for the weekend ROTFL.

It may seem ridiculous, but essentially you're letting the sophistication of your detection methods match the sophistication of your participants (and their NASA Dads, all respect intended).

Bear in mind, if I were to suggest your wheel weigher contraption (I think it's a cool solution) in our Council, they'd run me off the Committee in about 2 seconds (few Engineers / scientists, even fewer Pineheads). Not in "rocket scientist" land up here.

Bubba

p.s. Check this out (I'm sure somebody carries a narrower version, but I gotta get back to work)...

http://www.spooktech.com/bodyworn/tacti ... tems.shtml

[gpraceman]

So, free for all in the rules vs tear down... where do you stand?

My understanding is you are for a free for all... so the rules should state clearly or simply fail to state anything that prohibits mods to the wheel bores, axles or choice of lube.

Free for all vs tear down... I see one or the other as the outcome unless we find a passive way to inspect wheel bores/axles and lube.

That is quite a bad assumption T. I am an advocate of neither extreme. That is quite well documented on this board. There is a middle ground that can still make for a fair and enjoyable race. It takes into account trying to make for an even playing field, but also looking for reasonable enforcement. My definition of "reasonable" includes that it be non-destructive.

1. Access, easy to obtain???? yea, for $18.95 plus shipping you can order Krytox from MaxV. If that's the barometer, than razor wheels and needle axles meet the exact same criteria. I live in a fairly decent sized metropolitan area, I know that Tee does too, so have the Scout shops or Wally World, or HobbyTown USA or Ben Franklin or Michaels started carrying Nyoil? For the 98% of kids and families that want to be involved and competitive, these are not "easily available". You cannot run out and pick them up the week before the race.

The average racer does have access to a variety of lubes. Just go to the local hardware store or other big box store. Is NyOil and Krytox the "best" lube out there? Doubtful. Why not give people the lattitude to experiment? Have you tested all of the locally available lubes (or combinations there of) and determined that none of these is faster than what the online derby suppliers are selling? Have you also tested all of the different techniques of applying these lubes?

2. Do axle grooves or bore modifications make a difference? Are you serious? Tell you what, you take a standard BSA wheel and axle, no modifications, polish and lube with graphite, and let me start with the same wheels and axles but allow me to put in metal bushings, and modify the axle at will, and use liquid lubes. All other things being equal, if I spotted you a car length I would probably still win by 2 feet.

On those, IMO the question is more towards can it be easily done by the average racer than if it can be beneficial (which there are people that will argue that point).

How hard is it to groove an axle? All you need is a file and a means to hold the axle. You don't even need a drill or drill press.

How hard is it to modify a bore? Running a screw through a wheel bore is a simple way to tap it. Placing a smooth rod in the bore and then running the wheel on a table is an easy way to burnish the bore.

3. Is liquid lube an advantage? Interesting discussion. However, if you take a look at what the big boys run over at WIRL or PWDRacing, they're all running liquid lubes. WHY???? (I've been watching because I want to get involved, but until I can figure out the white disks are that they're so secretive about I figure I can't be competitive. Sorry Randy, I know you don't want to talk about the leagues, just talking about the people who go ALL out, insist on the liquid lubes)

Not everyone is running a liquid lube. There are still those that hold to dry lubes. Anyways, I never said that there are not liquid lubes that can be faster than regular graphite.

4. Fouling the track..... If applied properly then it's no issue..... hmmm, applied properly, at a scout event. No problem there? For liquids, a "bump" test won't work. Until that wheel is spinning at 1000rpms, we won't know what will spin out of the bore.

I do challenge you to over apply a liquid lube to the point where it would foul the track and do it in such a way as not to be easily spotted by a visual inspection. I guess if you don't trust your judges to spot excess liquid lube running out of the wheel bores, then prohibit it. But then it comes back to how to enforce that.

5. If the "problem" is they're illegal, or we can't inspect for them ahead of time, just make them legal??? Not to go overboard, (maybe a little ) but isn't this the same arguement that comes up every year about legalizing drugs? We have rules. We are teaching and are founded on honesty, integrity, ethics, and fairplay. These two thoughts just don't seem to match at all!

Comparing this to illegal drugs, come on! We are talking a kids race here, not something that causes destruction to a person's health and leads to crime. Making them legal will not eliminate the health hazard nor the crime surrounding them (people will still steal to get money to buy them).

To make a rule that is not enforceable, is just a bad rule. If you are going to make such a rule, then you should be prepared for the inevitable conflict ahead.

6. Fair competition. What do you think most turns off a child and a family from wanting to be part of the race and derby, would it be because they can only use dry lubes, or because they do their best but don't know about the $20 lube, or $30 wheels, and they can't even come close to the same car that wins all the time? Just take a look at some of the posts in the past few days about the district where the same car has been run for the past several years, or the post about how the individual used liquid lube on the axles but made it look like graphite was on the bore to fool the inspectors. We had a brand new Tiger and scout family this year, come to the workshops, build and test their car, and take home a 4th place trophy. Who gets hurt by not allowing liquid lube? The one or two kids and families who are REALLY into PWD, (like me), who know they could get just a little more speed if it was allowed. Who gets hurt if you do allow it? All the other scouts who are not as in to it as us, who want to race, but will never be competitive.

Should a car from a previous year be used in a race? IMO, no. If the rules do not prohibit it, then such a rule should be added. Some seem to think that I advocate "free for all rules". Far from it. There should be a balance, a middle ground. T's district and council go to one extreme and I have seen others go the opposite way.

Don't know if it will be approved in my district, but it will be discussed.

Please don't ignore a hard look at your rules first. Those that should be thrown out as unenforceable and those that should be included or modified.

Remember, this is Pinewood Derby, not NASCAR.

[Darin McGrew]

Re-read my points above on liquid lube. That is the rationale that prevails amongst the folks here locally with respect to liquid lubes and why they are outlawed.

Yes, and the irony is that we started providing (but not requiring) liquid lube at our workshops to cut down on the mess.

My whole predicate for this post is how to enforce the rules we have.

I thought the goal was a fair race. Sorry, my mistake.

[3 Cub Dad]

Please don't ignore a hard look at your rules first. Those that should be thrown out as unenforceable and those that should be included or modified.

Remember, this is Pinewood Derby, not NASCAR.

Randy,

I think T's point here is valid. Specifically, since you can't inspect for bushings, or grooves, or bore modifications short of a post race teardown, should they all be allowed? I think that bushings and bore modifications are beyond most Cubs, (and most dad's) capabilities.

And yes, while extreme overlube that would drip out is easily inspected out, some overlube that come out under high rpms, that could slick the track, is not inspectable. You've never found a greasy film on the track after allowing liquid lubes?????

(btw- I TOLD you the comparison was over the top , no, I'm not comparing PWD to drugs, just the thought process of "oh well, if we can't stop it, just allow it", I don't think that should be part of the decision)

Steve

[Teeeman]

A camera is a neat idea but it would have to be able to see inside the bore and I don't know of one that can and the cost would probably be an issue...


-T

[Teeeman]

My whole predicate for this post is how to enforce the rules we have.

I thought the goal was a fair race. Sorry, my mistake.[/quote]


If the intent of that is to say I am advocating anything other than a fair race you have not read the posts, you are selectively editing and you are confused.

-T

[gpraceman]

I think T's point here is valid. Specifically, since you can't inspect for bushings, or grooves, or bore modifications short of a post race teardown, should they all be allowed? I think that bushings and bore modifications are beyond most Cubs, (and most dad's) capabilities.

I really think we are getting no where fast on this subject.

Personally, I'd rather err on the side of allowing something than try to enforce a rule where the only means to ensure compliance is to do destructive testing. I think we all can at least agree that there is very good potential to mess someone's car up in doing such an inspection. IMO, the cure is worse than the disease.

You've never found a greasy film on the track after allowing liquid lubes?????

Not at all and I can say that honestly. These last few years I have been personally involved in over a dozen races per year and have yet to see it. There is a valid concern but an easy to implement countermeasure.

Again, I challenge you to over apply liquid lubes to the point they will foul the track and do it in such a way as to make it hard to spot at check-in inspection. See for yourself.

[Darin McGrew]

My whole predicate for this post is how to enforce the rules we have.

I thought the goal was a fair race. Sorry, my mistake.

If the intent of that is to say I am advocating anything other than a fair race you have not read the posts, you are selectively editing and you are confused.

I'm sure you want a fair race. But apparently, that isn't what you want to discuss here. You want to discuss how to enforce your local rules, without considering other issues related to holding a fair race.

So, what are the goals of your program? What are the goals of your derby? Is the council derby still supporting those goals?

Personally, I'd stop participating in the council derby before weighing wheels and tearing down the winning cars after the race. That may be appropriate for an adult racing league, but it just seems so over-the-top for a kid-oriented derby.