Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Discussions on race planning, preparations and how to run a "fair" and fun race.
User avatar
pack529holycross
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:25 pm
Location: Dr. Phillips, Florida
Contact:

Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by pack529holycross »

3 Cub Dad wrote:
gpraceman wrote:Please don't ignore a hard look at your rules first. Those that should be thrown out as unenforceable and those that should be included or modified.

Remember, this is Pinewood Derby, not NASCAR.
Randy,

I think T's point here is valid. Specifically, since you can't inspect for bushings, or grooves, or bore modifications short of a post race teardown, should they all be allowed? I think that bushings and bore modifications are beyond most Cubs, (and most dad's) capabilities.

And yes, while extreme overlube that would drip out is easily inspected out, some overlube that come out under high rpms, that could slick the track, is not inspectable. You've never found a greasy film on the track after allowing liquid lubes?????

(btw- I TOLD you the comparison was over the top :mrgreen: :mrgreen: , no, I'm not comparing PWD to drugs, just the thought process of "oh well, if we can't stop it, just allow it", I don't think that should be part of the decision)

Steve
I have a thought, as I have begun the process of building the District Rules for 2008-2009 Derby next March. In thinking about what TYPE of racing I would desire for the District Events ( and hopefully have those guidelines flow through to the Unit Level ), I am left with the undeniable truth that RULES are necessary to insure that substituting construction materials and specs does not give a single racer a competitive advantage which exceeds the technical capabilities of a 7-11 year old boy. As I think about each section of the RULES, whether it be wheels, axles, or the block itself, I think to myself " what could a 7-11 year old boy accomplish ".

Several items clearly would be a challenge for that age group - using a precision lathe would be one of them, as an example. Clearly a Scout COULD take a Wheel Jig and hold sandpaper up to a spinning wheel to remove imperfections, as well as sandpaper and emory board to a spinning nail to accomplish the same goal.

Personally I find that I am completely comfortable with drawing the line at procedures that would require lathe work, such as the type of pre-purchased "grooved" or slotted axles, as an example.

I have chosen to go completely overboard with the DETAILS contained within the rules, in that I am methodically breaking down each section, then supplying a complete page of "acceptable" photos and "non-approved" photos to eliminate ( hopefully ) any "interpretations" of the rules. I believe that making this extra effort will also have the added effect of sifting down to the Unit Level as construction guidelines, helping to aleviate potential headaches at that level of competition. I am of the opinion that if there remains a "what if" question, then the rules are not clear enough.

It is my hope that by demonstrating within the rules a fore-knowledge of the "tricks" out there for hidden speed advantages will put parents on notice that we are fully aware of what is out there to tempt them, and the measures we are willing to take to level the playing field for all scouts.

A few things I am still playing with as potentials:

Prohibiting Glued in Axles, and requiring that ALL axles be held in place by BSA Axle Guards:

Image

I built an entire FLEET of Derby Cars for our Corp Derby Services, and not a single car uses glue in the Axle Slots. I find no credible arguement for allowing glue. I also think that requiring the axle guards provides the following benefits:

Each has 4 screws, allowing for minute weight adjustments at inspection time if slightly over 5.00 ounces.

Plate can be removed and replaced without significantly affecting alignment, allowing for instant inspection of axles for non-spec issues. This would include non-nail axles, etc.

I have never had a single Wheel come loose while using this piece.

Unintended spills or damage to the cars can be repaired without waiting for newly applied glue to dry before re-racing.

Given enough pre-race tuning time, it is feasable to have inspection be conducted with wheels OFF the car, to weigh wheels to spec ( 3.3 grams and up ), inspect axles, and really provide NO rocks to hide under when it comes to those who would circumvent well written rules.

I believe that the PRERACE "build up" after component inspection would also dilute the "EBAY" effect since a buyer would be aware of the likelihood that they would need to know how to take the wheels off, show them at inspection, and put them back on. Again, if the temptation is too costly in the potential for embarrassement on raceday, it helps the entire process by increasing the likelihood that the majority of cars are home built.

I am now prepared to recieve comments, stick in one hand and trash can lid in the other..lol
Nicholas
ScoutAndDadTeam
Journeyman
Journeyman
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:34 am
Location: North, Carolina

Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by ScoutAndDadTeam »

The problem with the axle guard is you have to have enough wood to hold the screws. The cars we run don't have that much wood around the axle slots.
User avatar
Darin McGrew
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1825
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:23 pm
Location: Knoxville, TN
Contact:

Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by Darin McGrew »

pack529holycross wrote:Personally I find that I am completely comfortable with drawing the line at procedures that would require lathe work, such as the type of pre-purchased "grooved" or slotted axles, as an example.
I must be missing something here. Why do grooved or slotted axles require a lathe? Why can't a father-son team use the same hand drill or drill press that they use to polish the axles?
User avatar
pack529holycross
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:25 pm
Location: Dr. Phillips, Florida
Contact:

Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by pack529holycross »

Darin McGrew wrote:
pack529holycross wrote:Personally I find that I am completely comfortable with drawing the line at procedures that would require lathe work, such as the type of pre-purchased "grooved" or slotted axles, as an example.
I must be missing something here. Why do grooved or slotted axles require a lathe? Why can't a father-son team use the same hand drill or drill press that they use to polish the axles?
I am saying that pre-purchased lathed grooved axles are not created using the tools you describe. Since they are created using a precision lathe, they are considered prohibited. Since pre-purchased grooved axles are prohibited, it is a more consistently enforceable spec to require non-grooved axles. ( This is considered from an inspection / enforcability perspective )
User avatar
3 Cub Dad
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 538
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:26 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by 3 Cub Dad »

Nicolas,

I don't like the idea of a pre-race disassembly / re-assembly because it could / would affect the results of the race. Especially if your son has spent a lot of time on the alignment, getting it back in would be difficult. Also, what about the cub who has worked with dad on the aligment, but is brought by mom or an aunt. I can see some bad results from that.

We saw some of those guards at this years derby. We had them remove them so that we could inspect the axles and then let them put them back on. One problem I see with them is that they would make canting with shims virtually impossible, so you would be stuck with the bent nail procedure.

On the other side, a post-race tear down of the winners to inspect only for illegal axle mods, bore mods, lubes or wheel weight, will not affect how the car ran the race!

Steve
User avatar
pack529holycross
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:25 pm
Location: Dr. Phillips, Florida
Contact:

Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by pack529holycross »

3 Cub Dad wrote:Nicolas,

I don't like the idea of a pre-race disassembly / re-assembly because it could / would affect the results of the race. Especially if your son has spent a lot of time on the alignment, getting it back in would be difficult. Also, what about the cub who has worked with dad on the aligment, but is brought by mom or an aunt. I can see some bad results from that.

We saw some of those guards at this years derby. We had them remove them so that we could inspect the axles and then let them put them back on. One problem I see with them is that they would make canting with shims virtually impossible, so you would be stuck with the bent nail procedure.

On the other side, a post-race tear down of the winners to inspect only for illegal axle mods, bore mods, lubes or wheel weight, will not affect how the car ran the race!

Steve

OK... so I think you are saying that using them does NOT ( in your opinion ) make it harder to align the car, and that it would give the winning car post-inspection process a more professional level, because the car would not be damaged in the process. I REALLY like that idea, because once you set the standard for wheel weights and non-approved axles, having it out there that the winning cars will need to be disassembled for post-race/pre-award "certification" is completely fair, does not impede performance during the event, does not delay the beginning of the event, and will provide a HUGE deterrent to racers attempting to circumvent the rules by assuming that "what cannot be seen cannot be found" . I think it strikes a fair balance.

I do agree that the requirement of their use DOES limit design choices somewhat, but on the other hand I think that if the hub areas are large enough to accomodate the guard, then the structural integrity of the car is increased.

Nicholas
User avatar
3 Cub Dad
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 538
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:26 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by 3 Cub Dad »

pack529holycross wrote:OK... so I think you are saying that using them does NOT ( in your opinion ) make it harder to align the car, and that it would give the winning car post-inspection process a more professional level, because the car would not be damaged in the process.
Nicholas,

As far as toe in or out, no it doesn't make alignment more difficult. As far as canting the axles, it does make it more difficult if you're trying to use the shim method.

Steve
Teeeman
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1577
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:40 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by Teeeman »

[quote="Darin McGrewI'm sure you want a fair race. But apparently, that isn't what you want to discuss here. You want to discuss how to enforce your local rules, without considering other issues related to holding a fair race.[/quote]

This implies to me that you consider your opinion of what is a fair race a standard we should be held to.

I have already stated what the local folks here agree to as being a fair race set of rules.

What I want to discuss here is how to enforce these rules which I think are fair.

I have considered quite well the "other issues" you bring forth and I find them of lesser importance than enforcement of the rules since it is clear that we have racers more than willing to violate them to gain advantage.

I envy the luxury of trust you can place in your local race participants (from what I read in other posts before).
Truly, I do.

I was shocked by the number of folks trying to push advantage illegally this weekend.

It has removed my trust in the folks who race here to abide by the rules.

I never had much of that to start with, but what little was there keeping me on the fence with the tear down was totally removed by this weekend.

-T
"I dunno..." - Uncle Eddie, Christmas Vacation
Teeeman
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1577
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:40 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by Teeeman »

[quote="gpraceman]I really think we are getting no where fast on this subject. :wall: [/quote]


That much I agree to.


This has not produced any fruit in terms of ideas on how to produce a passive inspection capable of enforcing what I consider good rules.

-T
"I dunno..." - Uncle Eddie, Christmas Vacation
Teeeman
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1577
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:40 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by Teeeman »

pack529holycross wrote:
3 Cub Dad wrote: Randy,

I think T's point here is valid. Specifically, since you can't inspect for bushings, or grooves, or bore modifications short of a post race teardown, should they all be allowed? I think that bushings and bore modifications are beyond most Cubs, (and most dad's) capabilities.

And yes, while extreme overlube that would drip out is easily inspected out, some overlube that come out under high rpms, that could slick the track, is not inspectable. You've never found a greasy film on the track after allowing liquid lubes?????

(btw- I TOLD you the comparison was over the top :mrgreen: :mrgreen: , no, I'm not comparing PWD to drugs, just the thought process of "oh well, if we can't stop it, just allow it", I don't think that should be part of the decision)

Steve
I have a thought, as I have begun the process of building the District Rules for 2008-2009 Derby next March. In thinking about what TYPE of racing I would desire for the District Events ( and hopefully have those guidelines flow through to the Unit Level ), I am left with the undeniable truth that RULES are necessary to insure that substituting construction materials and specs does not give a single racer a competitive advantage which exceeds the technical capabilities of a 7-11 year old boy. As I think about each section of the RULES, whether it be wheels, axles, or the block itself, I think to myself " what could a 7-11 year old boy accomplish ".

Several items clearly would be a challenge for that age group - using a precision lathe would be one of them, as an example. Clearly a Scout COULD take a Wheel Jig and hold sandpaper up to a spinning wheel to remove imperfections, as well as sandpaper and emory board to a spinning nail to accomplish the same goal.

Personally I find that I am completely comfortable with drawing the line at procedures that would require lathe work, such as the type of pre-purchased "grooved" or slotted axles, as an example.

I have chosen to go completely overboard with the DETAILS contained within the rules, in that I am methodically breaking down each section, then supplying a complete page of "acceptable" photos and "non-approved" photos to eliminate ( hopefully ) any "interpretations" of the rules. I believe that making this extra effort will also have the added effect of sifting down to the Unit Level as construction guidelines, helping to aleviate potential headaches at that level of competition. I am of the opinion that if there remains a "what if" question, then the rules are not clear enough.

It is my hope that by demonstrating within the rules a fore-knowledge of the "tricks" out there for hidden speed advantages will put parents on notice that we are fully aware of what is out there to tempt them, and the measures we are willing to take to level the playing field for all scouts.

A few things I am still playing with as potentials:

Prohibiting Glued in Axles, and requiring that ALL axles be held in place by BSA Axle Guards:

Image

I built an entire FLEET of Derby Cars for our Corp Derby Services, and not a single car uses glue in the Axle Slots. I find no credible arguement for allowing glue. I also think that requiring the axle guards provides the following benefits:

Each has 4 screws, allowing for minute weight adjustments at inspection time if slightly over 5.00 ounces.

Plate can be removed and replaced without significantly affecting alignment, allowing for instant inspection of axles for non-spec issues. This would include non-nail axles, etc.

I have never had a single Wheel come loose while using this piece.

Unintended spills or damage to the cars can be repaired without waiting for newly applied glue to dry before re-racing.

Given enough pre-race tuning time, it is feasable to have inspection be conducted with wheels OFF the car, to weigh wheels to spec ( 3.3 grams and up ), inspect axles, and really provide NO rocks to hide under when it comes to those who would circumvent well written rules.

I believe that the PRERACE "build up" after component inspection would also dilute the "EBAY" effect since a buyer would be aware of the likelihood that they would need to know how to take the wheels off, show them at inspection, and put them back on. Again, if the temptation is too costly in the potential for embarrassement on raceday, it helps the entire process by increasing the likelihood that the majority of cars are home built.

I am now prepared to recieve comments, stick in one hand and trash can lid in the other..lol
Nicholas

Your goals for your rules are exactly what I executed on our rules about 2 years ago... thus the infamous "31 page rule set" emerged.

Very visual ... very detailed... very much the same message... we know the tricks and we are telling you NOT to do them.

If you want a link to the rules as a reference, or just to see how someone else approached it, I'd be glad to provide.

I would love to see yours when complete as well!

BTW, if you spend a lot of time on this now and they introduce a new wheel for next year... that will mean a significant amount of rework in the pics, diagrams, etc.

-T
"I dunno..." - Uncle Eddie, Christmas Vacation
User avatar
Darin McGrew
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1825
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:23 pm
Location: Knoxville, TN
Contact:

Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by Darin McGrew »

Darin McGrew wrote:I'm sure you want a fair race. But apparently, that isn't what you want to discuss here. You want to discuss how to enforce your local rules, without considering other issues related to holding a fair race.
Teeeman wrote:This implies to me that you consider your opinion of what is a fair race a standard we should be held to.
I think my opinion is worth discussing, if the topic is how to hold a fair kid-oriented derby.
Teeeman wrote:What I want to discuss here is how to enforce these rules which I think are fair.
Sorry. I don't see a good way to enforce them. But to be honest, we don't try to inspect for modifications that are technically illegal (reshaping wheels/axles beyond "removing manufacturing irregularities"), but which are not visible unless you remove wheels and axles.
Teeeman
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1577
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:40 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by Teeeman »

Fair enough on the opinion, and I hold my own with the folks here and the rules we have.

It is different than the one you have.

I wish it were not, but it is.

You indicate that I am in the wrong because my opinion is different than yours and that is what I am correcting.

I wish I knew a better way to enforce our rules than to tear down...

but I do not.


I am however playing around with thoughts on how to do it... with cheap equipment.

-T
"I dunno..." - Uncle Eddie, Christmas Vacation
User avatar
Go Bubba Go
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:09 pm
Location: Northern, Illinois

Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by Go Bubba Go »

Teeeman wrote:...I wish I knew a better way to enforce our rules than to tear down...

but I do not.

I am however playing around with thoughts on how to do it... with cheap equipment.

-T
Thinking out loud (always a little dangerous), have you considered using a continuity tester with razor thin paddles held against the axle on either side of the wheel to test for axle grooves?

Have to think about it some more, but a reduced axle diameter, even for a single narrow width groove, would increase resistance through the axle... and running a couple mA through the axle shouldn't cause any harm that I can think of... perhaps you set a maximum threshold for resistance, anything above that limit is cause for pulling the axles and looking for grooves. Anything outside the "acceptable" threshold might also indicate illegal plating, etc. that might fall outside your rules. I'd have to get some examples out and start testing...

Have to think about it some more (could effect be masked by full width metal bushing? liquid lube? etc.?), there should be some way to skin this cat.

Bubba
"Who's Grandpa's neighbor?"... Phil Davis, Down and Derby
User avatar
Darin McGrew
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1825
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:23 pm
Location: Knoxville, TN
Contact:

Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by Darin McGrew »

You know, my inner geek loves idea of weighing wheels without even removing them from the car, or testing for illegal axles with an ohmmeter. But how do you explain this stuff to an 8-year-old kid?

BTW, a metal bushing could cause a change in resistance when you wiggle the wheel on the axle. When the bushing makes electrical contact, it provides a parallel path for the current that lowers the net resistance. When the bushing doesn't make electrical contact, you see just the resistance of the axle itself.

Of course, non-conductive bushings can't be detected this way...
User avatar
Darin McGrew
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1825
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:23 pm
Location: Knoxville, TN
Contact:

Re: Greater AL Council Race: Mutiny is brewing...

Post by Darin McGrew »

Hmm... I wonder whether an ohmmeter could detect illegal lubricants. With dry lubes, you could slip a tiny probe into the bore of the wheel and it would make contact with the axle. With a liquid lube, the film of lubricant would interfere with the probe-axle contact. You'd need to experiment with an assortment of lubricants (both legal and illegal).
Post Reply