Time Trials

Discussions on race planning, preparations and how to run a "fair" and fun race.
Post Reply
10range
Pine Head
Pine Head
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:41 am
Location: South Bend, indiana

Time Trials

Post by 10range »

I am wondering if anyone is using time trials to place the cars in heats? Last year our heat placements were done by random drawings. This resulted in a few heats where some very slow cars advanced while some much faster cars were eliminated in faster heats.

This year I am thinking about trying a time trial. The process would be that following a car being teched, it would be run one pass and the heats would be organized based on the time run.

Thoughts on this process?
User avatar
Darin McGrew
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1825
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:23 pm
Location: Knoxville, TN
Contact:

Re: Time Trials

Post by Darin McGrew »

10range wrote:Last year our heat placements were done by random drawings. This resulted in a few heats where some very slow cars advanced while some much faster cars were eliminated in faster heats.
So, what do you think the problem is?

Is it that cars are getting eliminated? Then use a race system that doesn't eliminate anyone.

Is it that fast cars are getting eliminated too quickly? Then use a multiple-elimination system that requires more losses before someone is eliminated. If you're using n-tuple elimination, then you can determine only the top n places with any certainty. Or to look at it the other way, if you are presenting awards to the top n places, then you need to use at least n-tuple elimination to have any certainty about your results.
10range
Pine Head
Pine Head
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:41 am
Location: South Bend, indiana

Re: Time Trials

Post by 10range »

Thanks for the feedback. Last year the race was a single elimination format. In each race, only the winner advanced. Yes, there were a few of the faster cars that were eliminated very early in the race. We may work on using a different format for this year but I am not sure that I will be able to work that out with our other leaders this year.

I was just thinking that in the other forms of motorsports that I have been involved in, we always used a time trial or points standing to set the heat races so why not in pinewood derby. It would also allow everyone to make at least one additional run.
User avatar
Darin McGrew
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1825
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:23 pm
Location: Knoxville, TN
Contact:

Re: Time Trials

Post by Darin McGrew »

If I had a track with a timer, then I'd go with a cumulative time system before I'd go with a single-elimination system (even with a time trial to seed the ladder). But for a kids' derby, my first preference would be a non-elimination system using each heat's finish order. My next preference would be a multiple-elimination system requiring as many losses as there are awards, which is obviously based on finish order as well. Then would come time-based systems, and finally, elimination systems requiring fewer losses than there are awards.

If you're going to use an elimination system, then I think Stan's No Chart, Multiple Elimination Racing method is the best for a kids' derby.
User avatar
Stan Pope
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 6856
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:01 pm
Location: Morton, Illinois
Contact:

Re: Time Trials

Post by Stan Pope »

Darin McGrew wrote:If I had a track with a timer, then I'd go with a cumulative time system before I'd go with a single-elimination system .
Yea, verily! :)

BTW, our district derby chair decided to run times (4 heats per car) last year and would not be dissuaded. I did some follow-up analysis and noted that for the distribution of racers involved (modestly selective entrance), the timed competition was slightly more accurate than the quintuple elim from the prior year. Another measure that I think is important to youngsters is that, even racing 3 at a time, 87% finished the day with at least one heat win in 2007 (Quintuple elim) and about 30% finished the day with at least one heat win in 2008 (timed).

Even if you never use No-Chart Multiple Elim, it is good to know the system, because you can run it with eye-ball judging and no written records at all for medium sized groups. The only equipment you need are some tokens that can be drawn to determine heat and opponents. In a pinch, an oatmeal box and 5 nickels will do if you have a felt tip marker to number the nickels! It is better than postponing the races if the electronic hardware or computer software is acting up.
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
User avatar
3 Cub Dad
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 538
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:26 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Time Trials

Post by 3 Cub Dad »

Stan,

Can you post a link to an explanation of the No Chart Multiple Elimination? I've run a few different formats. However, I'm VERY reliant on the electronics!! Sounds like this is one I should have in the "shirt pocket".

Thanks,

3CubDad
10range
Pine Head
Pine Head
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:41 am
Location: South Bend, indiana

Re: Time Trials

Post by 10range »

Stan Pope wrote:
Darin McGrew wrote:If I had a track with a timer, then I'd go with a cumulative time system before I'd go with a single-elimination system .
Yea, verily! :)

BTW, our district derby chair decided to run times (4 heats per car) last year and would not be dissuaded. I did some follow-up analysis and noted that for the distribution of racers involved (modestly selective entrance), the timed competition was slightly more accurate than the quintuple elim from the prior year. Another measure that I think is important to youngsters is that, even racing 3 at a time, 87% finished the day with at least one heat win in 2007 (Quintuple elim) and about 30% finished the day with at least one heat win in 2008 (timed).

Even if you never use No-Chart Multiple Elim, it is good to know the system, because you can run it with eye-ball judging and no written records at all for medium sized groups. The only equipment you need are some tokens that can be drawn to determine heat and opponents. In a pinch, an oatmeal box and 5 nickels will do if you have a felt tip marker to number the nickels! It is better than postponing the races if the electronic hardware or computer software is acting up.
I have suggested the multiple elimination format this year. We will not be able to use that in our adult race that is coming up but I may be able to convince our group to use it for the youth race. Can you give an estimate of how long a no-chart race would take with 20-30 racers using a 4 lane track? Just a general idea would help me promote the idea.
User avatar
Stan Pope
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 6856
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:01 pm
Location: Morton, Illinois
Contact:

Re: Time Trials

Post by Stan Pope »

Although I don't want to be redundant with Darin's post, I will repeat the link: http://www.stanpope.net/nelim.html

Usually the method is significantly faster than charted methods because individual racers don't need to be called out and brought to the track. They are managed in bunches.

There is a javascript linked in the page that will show the progression of racing for various combinations of elimination criteria and numbers of lanes and numbers of racers. The method manages the racers in bunches, so finding a particular racer is less of a problem. If the boys race their own cars, you can just let them line up as they will. The "lane draw" will mix them up a bit to reduce the benefit from lining up next to the traditional slow poke.

You can figure out how to work it if track staff does it all, but the randomizing may require more preparation. One sharp guy ran it with staff by assigning tokens to each car (by car number), had draw containers for each score group, and drew out token for opponent and lane. As heats progressed the draw containers received the tokens according to heat results. Example: Round 4, Group "2 losses": All tokens are drawn starting with heat 1 lane 1, heat 1 lane 2, ... The now empty Group "2 losses' container receives the heat winner's token and the recently reformed Group "3 losses" containers receives the heat's 2nd, 3rd place finisher's tokens.

Cars per heat depends on how many racers are involved. If you have too many cars per heat, the group of unbeaten cars shrinks too rapidly.
2 per heat: 27, 14, 7, 4, 2, 1 (Okay, I think.)
3 per heat: 27, 9, 3, 1 (Shrinks too fast to my taste)
4 per heat: 27, 7, 2, 1 (Shrinks too fast and the draw token management is complicated)

But for 70 cars, three lanes at a time is good:
2 per heat: 70, 35, 18, 9, 5, 3, 2, 1
3 per heat: 70. 23. 8. 3. 1 (about right)
4 per heat: 70, 18, 5, 2, 1
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
User avatar
gpraceman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4926
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Contact:

Re: Time Trials

Post by gpraceman »

I'm still no fan of any multiple elim format for a kids race. I personally find non-elimination methods easier to manage, especially with race software to manage the schedule, record results, provide reports, stats, etc.. That and elim formats generally do not gaurantee that racers will run in every lane. Then the "I drew the bad lane" complaint crops up.

Stan, I know you've got your system all drawn out, but I'd have a harder time trying to manage that system, much less explain it to the audience. But others may find it easier to digest and manage.
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8

Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
User avatar
Stan Pope
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 6856
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:01 pm
Location: Morton, Illinois
Contact:

Re: Time Trials

Post by Stan Pope »

gpraceman wrote:... elim formats generally do not gaurantee that racers will run in every lane. Then the "I drew the bad lane" complaint crops up.
Racing involves "random influences" regardless of method. Even a timed race for a district or council race needs lots more heats per car to produce comparably accurate results than for a typical pack, where the racers performance are less bunched near "perfect".

If the procedure assures that advantage and disadvantage are apportioned in a random (fair) manner and that there are lots of opportunities for the randomness to average out, then "I drew a bad lane" becomes an observation about a particular heat rather than a complaint about the fairness of the race.

But, it is a good tradition among Cub Scouters to have a "Plan B" to call upon when Plan A falls apart. Both the learning and the explanation can be easily accommodated with a bit of study. The first guy I introduced this to "got it" orally over the phone with no web site backup in about 10 minutes of discussion! He did miss the point about a ladder finals, which prevents #1 from being determined early in the racing. With the addition of a ladder final, the last race of the day determines #1! (But the last unbeaten racer is certain of #2 at least. We don't say so, but it is apparent to the audience toward the end of racing.)

By the way, the javascript that I mentioned earlier gives you an easy way to determine the percentage of racers that win at least one heat. Just count the number who leave with straight losses. The rest have won at least one heat! I think that our district race chair is arranging to give a ribbon announcing their success to each entrant who wins at least one heat. And we are likely to have the 12 to 13% who fall out with no wins get one final chance at success by racing The Cubmaster and his slick-looking "Cub Racer Eater", a carefully prepared "turtle," and go away with an "I beat the Cubmaster" ribbon. I think that this is in the spirit of Cub Scouting and is probably good for the youngsters. YMMV, of course.
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
User avatar
gpraceman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4926
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Contact:

Re: Time Trials

Post by gpraceman »

Our Plan B is to use paper versions of charts generated by your web based Perfect-N generator :wink:
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8

Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
User avatar
Stan Pope
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 6856
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:01 pm
Location: Morton, Illinois
Contact:

Re: Time Trials

Post by Stan Pope »

gpraceman wrote:Our Plan B is to use paper versions of charts generated by your web based Perfect-N generator :wink:
That works, too. :)

They work best when scored by linear points rather than 1 point for first, 0 points elsewise. So you must have enough of Plan A left to register heat place. Or have incredibly patient and attentive finish line judges.

The down side is that way much of the progress is hidden from view. Special care is needed to communicate to the audience and the participants. With "No Chart" each boy's progress is obvious to anyone, even if they just walked in. That "special care" (actually the lack thereof) is one of the reasons our "timed district races" kinda flopped last year.
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
Post Reply