Controlling Cant at checking

[pack529holycross]

I know that canting is a generally accepted practice to improve performance. My question is this - does anyone apply any limitations or restrictions on the severity of canting, or just allow it and leave the degree of cant alone?


I am considering a max cant of 2 degrees.


Nicholas



yes of course the next question is enforcement and some type of go/no go for canting angle.. ugh!...lol

[gpraceman]

If you are going to allow canting, why in the world would you put a limit on the amount of cant?????

Let the racers have the freedom to experiment. At some point, making the cant too extreme will cause there to be more friction between the axle head and wheel than there would have been between the wheel bore and axle with no cant. That would defeat the purpose of canting, since you are inducing more friction, not less.

With a lot of things in this sport, something that can be an advantage can easily be a disadvantage if done poorly.

Then also, let me propose this scenario. Say you do limit the cant. During the race (or after), some dad notices that the cant on a particularly fast car is out of limits and brings it to your attention. So, did your inspection miss it or could the axles have become loose due to handling or racing (stopping more likely)? Save yourself the grief and not put in such an arbitrary and senseless limit.

I realize you are trying to create an even playing field, but you have to really
1) evaluate the purpose/intent of a rule
2) be able to reasonably enforce it
3) if the rule is broken, will it really lead to an "unfair" advantage. Could it just as easily be a disadvantage if not done properly?

#1 escapes me as to why such a rule would be needed
#2 I don't see how you would reasonbly enforce that without dramatically slowing down the check-in line.
#3 I see no unfair advantage and can easily see it being a disadvantage.

[pack529holycross]

If you are going to allow canting, why in the world would you put a limit on the amount of cant?????

Let the racers have the freedom to experiment. At some point, making the cant too extreme will cause there to be more friction between the axle head and wheel than there would have been between the wheel bore and axle with no cant. That would defeat the purpose of canting, since you are inducing more friction, not less.

With a lot of things in this sport, something that can be an advantage can easily be a disadvantage if done poorly.

Then also, let me propose this scenario. Say you do limit the cant. During the race (or after), some dad notices that the cant on a particularly fast car is out of limits and brings it to your attention. So, did your inspection miss it or could the axles have become loose due to handling or racing (stopping more likely)? Save yourself the grief and not put in such an arbitrary and senseless limit.

I am trying to address the issue of " wheels parallel to the track " as it relates to PROFILE, and the interpretation that although the profile can be parallel, the wheel could be canted as a function of the axle angle. The wording on our rules defines the wheel profile without precluding canting, but generally many feel that most would avoid canting even though it is not explicitly prohitibed in the rules details.

This is what I have thus far:

AXLES – AXLES used in PWD cars competing at the District and Council Derby Events must have begun life as OFFICIAL axles from BSA PWD kits. This translates into a prohibition on AXLES created from a different raw material and shaped to conform to the dimensions of official BSA NAILS/AXLES. No chromed or nickel-plated axles permitted. Axles may be de-burred, smoothed, and polished. [Canting of axles is not expressly prohibited by these race rules] added 3/19/2009

WHEELS - The wheel diameter cannot be reduced past the ridge (rippled) edge, which must remain intact on the entire wheel. Wheel weight cannot be reduced below 3.3 grams each. The HUB portion of each wheel cannot be separated from the car body by bushings, washers, or other materials. Hub Coning IS allowed. The OUTSIDE Contact Patch / Tread CANNOT be modified or altered to a profile that is concave, grooved, H-Shaped, angled, or otherwise out of parallel with the track, and All FOUR Wheels must make contact with the track.

[gpraceman]

Are you trying to rework the rules or just trying to address an interpretation issue?

"wheels parallel to the track" seems like a poor choice of words. Leave the track out of it, if you will be allowing canting. Maybe it would be better to say that the "tread must be cylindrical", or if you use the term parallel, make it state that the "tread must be parallel to the wheel bore".

[mbb]

I dont think you should worry about it.
Canting may or may not be advantageous, it depends on other factors. Plenty of people have had bad results with it. In any case, sticking axles is slots crooked is not out of the reach of anyone, and is commonly the result of a car built by a kid without adult help, so what is the problem?

How are you going to measure it? 2 degree of cant we refer to is an axle cant. Cant in an axle does not equal 2 degree of cant on the wheel due to the slop in the wheel bore. The larger the axle-bore clearance the less the wheel will cant with a given axle cant.

I wholeheartedly agree to limit things that are out of the reach of most and/or bought, which violates the spirit of pwd and give unfair advantages. Purchased CNC lathed axles and wheels are among those, so is extreme wheel work which requires a lathe, like 1g wheels even if they make them themselves, even though a kid can turn a handle as well as an adult and that is all it is.

But, by the same token I could say tungsten wt should be prohibited, it is bought, expensive, and gives a serious advantage in allowing compact weighting and a compact car body. And it is beyond the reach of anyone who doesnt know about it, mailorder it, and spend $20 per car for it. When you look at it that way you can get a set of stock wt CNCd wheels for much less than tungsten, so why not allow those wheels, and ban tungsten wt?

But I digress. Sticking the wheels in crooked doesnt seem to be in the same category as the other things.

[psycaz]

Technically, canting of an axle does nothing to change the fact of a wheel being parallel to the track or not. It's the axle. The wheel would be if it were not mounted.

The wording on the wheels are usually there to prevent the h, v or other type of tread modification. Canting axles doesn't modify the wheel tread at all.

I would suggest as well to let them go at it. It's not something that is not out of the scope of what a scout could do - most do it anyways unintentionally.

I would suggest to try to leave as much imagination as possible in the rules. Otherwise you have the cars all alike without any of the personal touches. No trial and error. No innovation.

[Davhamm]

.....
But, by the same token I could say tungsten wt should be prohibited, it is bought, expensive, and gives a serious advantage in allowing compact weighting and a compact car body. And it is beyond the reach of anyone who doesnt know about it, mailorder it, and spend $20 per car for it. When you look at it that way you can get a set of stock wt CNCd wheels for much less than tungsten, so why not allow those wheels, and ban tungsten wt?

But I digress. Sticking the wheels in crooked doesnt seem to be in the same category as the other things.

I bought 1lb of tungsten for $25 plus shipping. How much are you putting in your car? plus since its safe to handle, set it up to be removable and reuse each year, and sell at the end of your Pinewood career. Personally so many people are worried about the kids safety I would BAN lead.

[gpraceman]

I bought 1lb of tungsten for $25 plus shipping. How much are you putting in your car? plus since its safe to handle, set it up to be removable and reuse each year, and sell at the end of your Pinewood career. Personally so many people are worried about the kids safety I would BAN lead.

We are getting off topic, but that is a good deal. Where did you purchase it from?

[psycaz]

I bought 1lb of tungsten for $25 plus shipping. How much are you putting in your car? plus since its safe to handle, set it up to be removable and reuse each year, and sell at the end of your Pinewood career. Personally so many people are worried about the kids safety I would BAN lead.

We are getting off topic, but that is a good deal. Where did you purchase it from?

Yeah, what he said..

Where did you find such a great deal on Tungsten?

[Teeeman]

The rules I enforced this year said the wheels had to run flat.

My interpretation was if me or the owner could massage the wheels on the car sitting on a flat surface to be flat, it was legal.

Any cant this allows was "within the error of a boy scout building the car".

If me nor the owner could massage the wheels to sit flat, excessive cant and it had to be removed. I had a lot of folks tweaking them right in front of me until they were flat enough.

The fastest cars were right on the hairy edge but required no help in inspection...

most of the cars that failed were "all over the map" which told me it was inadvertent.

-Terry