Thanks for all the help.

[Rukkian]

While this is my first post on the board, I have read through most of the posts over the last 2 months since I found it. I want to thank all of the members of this board, as alot of the ideas helped in the planning of the derby. I volunteered this year to actually run the derby for our pack, and it went really well, everybody said it was the best run the pack has ever had. We have an older 4 lane track with a basic "The Judge" timer. The timer had not been working for years, so I sent it in last year, and they fixed it pretty cheaply, which helped, as we had several races that would have been too close to call between cars, and even had an actual tie, which may have been a long conversation in the past.

Our setup - small pack (35 scouts), with 25 of those in 2 ranks (wolf and bear) due to good recruiting years. I put the tigers, Web1, and Web2 into one schedule, and raced the bears and wolves each separately. We ran a PPN schedule using an excel sheet with macros that I found, that setup the schedules and did the scoring, which worked great, and went by points. I determined winners of the ranks that were put together by just taking the best points totals from each of the ranks individually out of the totals. We ran 2 times down each lane, got through all 35 cubs, 10 parents/siblings, and then another 8 races per scout for the top 2 in each rank in the finals, all in less than 3.5 hours. We ran 2 clinics (6 weeks and 2 weeks before the event) which really helped the scouts that did not have access to tools.

In years past, they had simply done everything, including track setup, check-in etc on a school night for the regular pack meeting, and it ended up being a really long night with everybody fading fast by the end. We moved it to Saturday, and provided lunch after checkin so we could get the schedules ready to go. Overall everything went fine, except for one thing - We had 3 scouts (2 from the same family) that came in with absolutely no weight on their cars. One was a tiger and it is understood, but the others were Bears that were in their 3rd races. We had brought some weights to help out if somebody came in a little light, so we could help tweak, but these scouts basically wiped us out, so we had to use other weights to help the scouts that simply needed minor tweaking.

I would like to know how others handle this type of thing, we like to be able to help scouts out as much as possible to get better competition, but do you draw a line (IE: only give out up to .5 oz). Also, what do you think of the way I put the dens together, is this fair to them?

Again thanks to all for the help.

[FatSebastian]

I would like to know how others handle this type of thing, we like to be able to help scouts out as much as possible to get better competition, but do you draw a line (IE: only give out up to .5 oz).

Rukkian! This is an interesting problem, and I am also curious what others might be doing. Underweighted cars do not seem to be a problem for us. At our races we feel obligated to inform parents that the ability of their son's car to make it to the finish line increases with its weight, and it will be potentially embarrassing to him if his car does not finish.

While pit crews are not necessarily obliged to supply weights for cars, lead sinker weights are relatively inexpensive and easy to come by; the bullet shaped type come in 1/16 and 1/8-ounce increments, and usually up to a maximum of 1/2 ounces, and can be glued on top of a car with super glue in a pinch to help get a car across the finish line.

A potential compromise might be that you invest in one or more packages of each weight increment, and limit the number of weights rather than enforcing a particular weight limit. OR - sell weights by the piece at the pit with profits going back to the Pack. The largest size weights will be the most used for those that haven't added any extra weight - so stock up accordingly.

[Darin McGrew]

We make it clear that we will not have molten lead on registration night, and encourage everyone to weight their cars at the workshops. On registration night, we have trim weight, but we do have larger pieces too, so if someone had a car that was significantly underweight, then we could let them glue recycled tire weights to their car. It might not be pretty, but they could get the car up to 5 oz.

[ah8tk]

In our council, lead weights are allowed this year for Cub Scouts but will NOT be allowed next year. Why not just go to the bank, get a roll of pennies and a 3/4" spade bit (pennies are usually cheaper than steel washers), if you run short have a scout go around and ask others if they have any pennies they could use for weight.

In scouting we need to come up with some alternate methods because of the ban on lead next year.

My .02
Andy

[FatSebastian]

In our council, lead weights are allowed this year for Cub Scouts but will NOT be allowed next year.

Not wanting to hijack the topic, but why is lead being banned in your council? (It's not like you will be putting the cars in your mouths.) Is the ban on exposed lead, loose weights in the pit area, or...? If a Scout sealed lead in his car, how could you know? Why is lead suddenly hazardous next year?

In scouting we need to come up with some alternate methods because of the ban on lead next year.

Do you mean scouting just in your council, or "in scouting" generally? Details please...

[ah8tk]

Here is the text from the Northern Star Council-2010 Pinewood Derby Rules

WEIGHTS:
The drilling/removal of Lead(Pb) will NOT be allowed at the race venues or at check-in time due to the toxicity of the material. Due to the historic use of Lead(Pb) the elimination will be phased in. This is the last season where Lead(Pb) will be allowed as a weight. All Lead(Pb) must be completely sealed and safe from all possible contact with the youth. As of 7/1/2010 Lead(Pb) will not be allowed for weight. PLEASE try to avoid Lead(Pb) in cars this year!

These rules were written by Warren (Mr. Slick), he may need to adddress where this rule came from. It is all the buzz at our PWD this last Saturday. We made announcements making sure all knew about this new rule.

The Northern Star Council rules are HERE

I am just guessing that this may come down all over some day...

Andy

[FatSebastian]

Here is the text from the Northern Star Council-2010 Pinewood Derby Rules

Thanks much for the prompt follow up, Andy.

The drilling/removal of Lead(Pb) will NOT be allowed at the race venues or at check-in time due to the toxicity of the material.

I believe that lead is only toxic if ingested, and the "toxicity of the material" certainly has not increased. (I seem to recall that more children are poisoned from iron than lead.) Perhaps there is a cleanliness rule where the council races are being held?

These rules were written by Warren (Mr. Slick), he may need to adddress where this rule came from.

The same Mr. Slick that vends a (somewhat expensive) lead substitute? Anyone within the Northern Star Council balking at this yet?

I am just guessing that this may come down all over some day...

Okay, thanks for that.

[gpraceman]

These rules were written by Warren (Mr. Slick), he may need to adddress where this rule came from.

The same Mr. Slick that vends a (somewhat expensive) lead substitute? Anyone within the Northern Star Council balking at this yet?

Well, I'm sure some people will think it a conflict of interest. However, I do see "getting the lead out" campaigns spreading to the derby world. I've seen piles of lead shavings left on the tables in the pit area as someone was trying to drill out extra weight. Are the people cleaning up the pit area remember to wash their hands afterward? I've also seen many cars with lead weights that are not painted over or encased in the car's body. Are the kids that are handling the cars remembering to wash their hands afterward? Hopefully they do before they go eat. Maybe people will balk at a no lead rule, but then again maybe not where our kids are concerned.

[FatSebastian]

Well, I'm sure some people will think it a conflict of interest.

I suppose that's for the Northern Star Council to figure out, although I would hope that all Scouting parents and volunteer leaders concerned about it either way (conflicts of interest, or health concerns) would write the council's Scouting professionals.

Maybe people will balk at a no lead rule, but then again maybe not where our kids are concerned.

How many men on this forum who built cars as kids used lead as a ballast? Of those, how many suffered any kind of health repercussion from that experience? Swallowing zinc is also hazardous, but that doesn't stop PWD vendors from selling it, or people from using it on their cars. I suspect that driving to the council race may be more hazardous to one's health than exposure to derby-car lead; if lead toxicity is to be cited as the reason for the change, then the actual risk within the PWD environment should be realistically assessed first.

IMO this type of rule change needs unshakable justification because of the potentially discriminatory ramifications on participation. Families who feel that they cannot afford tungsten and tungsten-based composite simply won't be able to compete at the higher levels, and therefore might not try to compete at all; also, tungsten-based products are not yet commonly available outside of hobby specialists, it seems.

If a no-lead rule had been in place decades ago, I wonder if Pinewood Derby would have become the success it has become today?

[Stan Pope]

As I understand, the danger from lead increases as the frequency of contact increases. There is a vast difference in contact frequency for a youngster who builds one or two cars each year versus an enthusiastic youngster who builds two or three cars a month. At the level of one or two per year, the risk seems to me to disappear into the background noise. For the car handling time between builds, painting / sealing the lead from contact seems an easy protection.

[FatSebastian]

As I understand, the danger from lead increases as the frequency of contact increases. [...] At the level of one or two per year, the risk seems to me to disappear into the background noise.

Great point, Stan. (However, if by "contact" it might be construed that lead is readily absorbed by way of incidental contact with the skin, my understanding is that lead absorption comes about almost exclusively via digestion or inhalation.)

During the course of building a pinewood derby car, boys may be exposed to cutting blades and other functionally sharp points, power tools, spray paint, etc. IMO these may pose much greater health risks than lead toxicity.

[Buckeyefan]

I think a little perspective is in order where it lead is concerned. For many years, millions of kids (myself included) used lead on an almost daily basis in the spring and summer where fishing is a popular pastime. We handled it constantly while tying sinkers onto our lines. I have many tackle boxes full of every type of sinker imaginable. I also possess the commercial tools to safely melt lead and mold sinkers and jigs. I have molded weights for my son's cars and many of his friends for the past 5 years. I do not pour lead when the kids are present! I do it in the garage with the door open and a fan blowing the fumes away from me. As soon as the lead is attached to or sealed in the car, it is painted, so the handling of bare lead is minimal. I usually build the cars to 4.8 oz and include a small hole to add weight at the weigh in. The weight is glued in and covered with a sticker or some sort of design element of the car. Lead is cheap, can be shaped, cut, hammered, or poured to fit your design. We have been very successful with it, always finishing top 5 in a very competitive pack. For what it's worth, I'm a defense contractor and work in the Pentagon, so I don't believe it has effected my health or mental abilities. My point is, the occasional exposure to lead in a Pinewood Derby scenario is not a big health threat in my opinion, as long as the scouts are not putting it into their mouths and washing their hands afterward. I believe there is a much bigger potential health issue with the cubs inhaling spray paint fumes while painting their cars than anything lead will cause. Just my 2 cents.
Buckeyefan

[Stan Pope]

Hmmm ... sounds like there is little disagreement at this end of the room!

[Nitro Dan]

We offer free weights in Lead, Zinc and Steel at all our workshops. We bring those weights to registration as well and if someone shows up with an unweighted car, we use those weights to bring them up to standard. Our solution is simply to have a large supply of weights handy.

Any exposed lead at registration is covered with clear nail polish to limit exposure. We don't advocate not using lead, but we do let parents know that it is a poisonous substance. We also emphasize that it can be handled safely provided you wash your hands after touching it.

I usually like to buy a box of quarter ounce stick-on tire weights, but over the last few years I've noticed that it is getting harder and harder to find them. Tire weights seem to be going the way of steel or zinc, and lead is rapidly becoming a thing of the past. Also lead has been almost entirely eradicated from the "toy soldier" or "gaming figure" industry.

-Nitro Dan

[Mr. Slick]

For the record, I am not creating the ban. It was brought to my attention that all of us who allow Lead(Pb) to be used in a pinewood derby car are breaking the law. Lead(Pb) in toys is very regulated. In August 2008, the Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act was passed, which restricts the amount of lead and phthalates that may be contained in children's toys (ages 12 and under).

The Lead-Free Toys Act is a chemical regulation that requires the CPSC to ban children products containing more than a trace amount of lead.

If you can see the amount of Lead(Pb) used, there is too much - 600 ppm is the MAX. . ppm=Parts Per MILLION
For a 5 ounce toy, the limit would result in very very little allowed. 600/1,000,000 * 5 oz = 3/1,000th of an ounce.

http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PREREL/prhtml09/09120.html" target="_blank

"Sellers will not be immune from prosecution if CPSC’s Office of Compliance finds that someone had actual knowledge that one of these children’s products contained more than 600 ppm lead or continued to make, import, distribute or sell such a product after being put on notice. Agency staff will seek recalls of violative children’s products or other corrective actions, where appropriate."

Personally, I would recommend that all the on-line sellers STOP SELLING LEAD(Pb) for use with toys. Yes, I do offer a denser then Lead(Pb) alternative but have not and will not use my position in the BSA to promote my material. I will not cut down others who sell Tungsten in competition but who are always cutting down the child focused product I have to offer. . . anyone notice?

Please go to the source of the regulations before worrying about a potential conflict of interest. Here in Minnesota we have been working on eliminating Lead)Pb) in the environment for quite a while. We even have programs to call parents to remind them to get their kids tested for Lead(Pb) poisoning if they are in the state's health care system.


Maybe we are just leading the newest rules for a well established event.