It looks like one of the collaborators found these rules to be a good start.whodathunkit wrote:*5 J's*
Your rules are starting to look like this one:
http://www.northernstarbsa.org/forms/ac ... yrules.pdf" target="_blank
Do you let the kids use finder flairs?
And do you let them use other stable materials to enhance the design?
Like what is seen in these rules.
2012 Revised Rules
Re: 2012 Revised Rules
- FatSebastian
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Re: 2012 Revised Rules
I think the way to satisfy the intent is to use the word block rather than the word car when prescribing locations. The block is 7", the car is not necessarily.*5 J's* wrote:Okay - I think everybody here understands my intent...Darin McGrew wrote:If you specify a maximum distance of 7/8" between one axle and the end of the car...
- FatSebastian
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Re: 2012 Revised Rules
Here is my shot at making these rules less than 1000 words:*5 J's* wrote:I appreciate your help with this and welcome any other suggested carving.
_____________________________________________________________________
GENERAL
In these rules, the Scout is the “Driver” and the Scout’s Akela (adult helper) is the “Pit Crew”.
Any driver or pit-crew member may appeal the interpretation of these rules to local race officials who will, by majority vote, be the final interpreters at each level of competition. (Interpretations made at the Pack level are not necessarily binding at the District level.)
ELIGIBILITY
The Pinewood Derby welcomes Cub Scout drivers registered within the Abnaki District (including Webelos having recently crossed over to Boy Scouts). Each competing car must have been built during the 2011-12 derby season by its driver and pit crew. Cars that were built earlier, or that were purchased pre-assembled or otherwise enhanced by third parties, are ineligible.
The top five cars from each Pack qualify for the 2012 District Pinewood Derby. No adult may race a car on behalf of an absent youth; if a driver is unable to race his qualified car at the District derby, the Pack may allow another registered Scout to handle the qualified car.
BODY SPECIFICATIONS
Race cars shall be built from the Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Kit (BSA No. 17006). Adult supervision is encouraged during construction. The main structure shall be from the kit’s wooden block. Accessories such as steering wheels, spoilers, fenders, decals, interior details, etc., are permissible as long as the finished car meets all specifications. (Race-car decals should not advertise alcohol or tobacco.) Only wheels may contact the track’s roadway.
A. Finished Dimensions
• Width - Not to exceed 2 3/4 inches
• Length - Not to exceed 7 inches
• Weight - Not to exceed 5.0 ounces
• Height - Not to exceed 3 inches
• Width between wheels – Must clear center guide rail, typically 1-3/4 inches minimum.
• Bottom Clearance - Must clear center guide rail, typically no less than less than 3/8 inches above the roadway.
• Wheelbase – Use of the pre-cut axle slots is encouraged but not required; replacement slots or holes shall maintain the same block locations as pre-cut slots (nominally 7/8 inches from one end of the block and 1 3/4 inches from the other end).
• Front End – To accommodate all starting pins, the car’s lowest contact point must touch the pin no higher than 1 inch above the roadway, with no part of the car extending beyond the starting pin. The front center must be at least one-half inches wide.
B. Prohibited Items
• Magnets, propellants, or starting devices
• Liquids, wet paint, sticky substances, oil or powders (except axle lubrication)
• Glass, excessively fragile parts, moving or loose objects
• Pointed, sharp, and/or jagged metallic parts
• Electronics or lighting that could interfere with race sensors
• Attachments that may contact the roadway
WHEEL SPECIFICATIONS
Official BSA Grand Prix wheels are required. Replacement BSA wheels (including colored wheels) must be acquired unmodified.
Every wheel must spin freely on a horizontally mounted BSA axle (at no more than a 45 degree angle) on the outside of the car. There must be at least four wheels, but all wheels need not contact the roadway.
A. Wheel Alterations
Wheels cannot be reshaped to substantially reduce weight, minimize roadway contact, or alter aerodynamics. The top and edge of the tread surface may be lightly sanded or shaved to remove imperfections but the tread surface must remain parallel to the wheel bore. Each wheel will be checked for a minimum diameter of 1.170 inches and minimum width of 0.360 inches. All lettering, fluting, and other BSA identification marks must remain intact and visible.
You may add material (glue, fingernail polish, tape, etc.) behind the wheel to aid with balancing, but material may not be removed. You may “true” and polish the outer hub.
B. Prohibited Items
• Rounded, grooved, raked, slanted, tapered, shaped (“H-cut”, “V-cut”, etc.) tread
• Lightened wheels (e.g., by hollowing, sanding, lathing, drilling, etc.)
• Bushings, inserts, etc. attached to or in contact with the axle, body or wheels.
• Wheel covers or hubcaps
• Wheel modifications or alterations from third party suppliers
Note: Professionally modified “aftermarket” wheels which are LIGHTENED by lathing are EASILY RECOGNIZED at inspection and will NOT be permitted to race.
AXLE SPECIFICATIONS
BSA axles (nails) shall mount into wood and shall not be mechanically driven (rotate or spin). Replacement BSA axles must be acquired unmodified.
A. Axle Alterations
Polishing, including the removal of bends, crimp marks, burrs, flashing, and other imperfections, is allowed.
B. Prohibited Items
• Springs, washers, bearings, sleeves, etc.
• Axle modifications or alterations from third party suppliers
LUBRICATION
Axles should be carefully lubricated before inspection; lubricating after inspection is prohibited. Roadway contamination caused by excessive lubrication is grounds for disqualification. Lubricants may include (but are not limited to) graphite, Teflon, Nyoil, and Krytox.
INSPECTION
Each car must pass inspection by an Inspection Committee within the allotted inspection period. After passing inspection, only the driver may handle his car unless damaged. Once cars have been registered, weighed, and inspected, they shall remain in the custody of Race Officials until the end of the competition.
Weight will be determined by the official scale at each derby. Because scale readings may differ between the Pack and District derbies, drivers and pit crews may need to adjust weight at each level of competition.
REPAIRS
A damaged car will be disqualified if it cannot be repaired in time. The driver and pit crew will have no more than five minutes to make a repair during a heat, and up to five minutes or the start of the next heat (whichever is greater) between heats.
BEST OF SHOW
Each Pack may designate an additional (sixth) car for the District Pinewood Derby “Best of Show” (BOS) award. BOS cars must meet all specifications of the Pinewood Derby rules and pass inspection as race-worthy. Cars competing for BOS may also compete in the District derby if qualified within the top five at the Pack level. Cars that did not actively compete in their Packs’ 2011-12 derbies are ineligible for BOS competition.
- Stan Pope
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Re: 2012 Revised Rules
The "5 minute rule" does not seem to discriminate based on fault. If the damage were due to another car's or driver's action, then the driver of the damaged car might be DQ'ed by his failure to be able to repair within the 5 minutes. An extreme case is if an emotionally unstable opponent damaged the car with intent. Can you lay groundwork for the organizer to apply discretion when damage is due to another's fault?*5 J's* wrote:If a car suffers a mechanical problem after a race, the driver or his pit crew will have five minutes or until the next race to fix the car.
This could suggest that if the car is dropped during staging, no opportunity for repair will be afforded, because "the start of the next race" is immediate. I don't think this was intended. Correct, not intended. I guess it should say something like “If a car suffers a mechanical problem the driver or his pit crew will have five minutes to fix the car”.
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
Re: 2012 Revised Rules
Aboslutely, and I use the 5 minutes as a guideline - pending the extent of the damage. I don't want to specify wiggle room in the rules - but it exists.Stan Pope wrote:The "5 minute rule" does not seem to discriminate based on fault. If the damage were due to another car's or driver's action, then the driver of the damaged car might be DQ'ed by his failure to be able to repair within the 5 minutes. An extreme case is if an emotionally unstable opponent damaged the car with intent. Can you lay groundwork for the organizer to apply discretion when damage is due to another's fault?*5 J's* wrote:If a car suffers a mechanical problem after a race, the driver or his pit crew will have five minutes or until the next race to fix the car.
This could suggest that if the car is dropped during staging, no opportunity for repair will be afforded, because "the start of the next race" is immediate. I don't think this was intended. Correct, not intended. I guess it should say something like “If a car suffers a mechanical problem the driver or his pit crew will have five minutes to fix the car”.
Re: 2012 Revised Rules
Thanks FS - I going to take a good look and do an A/B comparison this weekend.FatSebastian wrote:Here is my shot at making these rules less than 1000 words:*5 J's* wrote:I appreciate your help with this and welcome any other suggested carving.
- Stan Pope
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Re: 2012 Revised Rules
Okay!*5 J's* wrote:Aboslutely, and I use the 5 minutes as a guideline - pending the extent of the damage. I don't want to specify wiggle room in the rules - but it exists.Stan Pope wrote: The "5 minute rule" does not seem to discriminate based on fault. If the damage were due to another car's or driver's action, then the driver of the damaged car might be DQ'ed by his failure to be able to repair within the 5 minutes. An extreme case is if an emotionally unstable opponent damaged the car with intent. Can you lay groundwork for the organizer to apply discretion when damage is due to another's fault?
I think that the "Rules" should tell the competitor what is expected of him (e.g. car specs, behavior), and, also, what he can expect of the those who run the races. I agree that there should be some room for the organizer to "keep it fair" or "accomodate unexpected events", but I think that the groundwork needs to be laid in the communication to competitors (rules).
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
Re: 2012 Revised Rules
Is that a reccomendation for a revision?Stan Pope wrote:Okay!*5 J's* wrote: Aboslutely, and I use the 5 minutes as a guideline - pending the extent of the damage. I don't want to specify wiggle room in the rules - but it exists.
I think that the "Rules" should tell the competitor what is expected of him (e.g. car specs, behavior), and, also, what he can expect of the those who run the races. I agree that there should be some room for the organizer to "keep it fair" or "accomodate unexpected events", but I think that the groundwork needs to be laid in the communication to competitors (rules).
- Stan Pope
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Re: 2012 Revised Rules
It is an observation on philosophy of rules. Absence of groundwork leaves organizers open to justified criticism when they deviate from what the rules say.*5 J's* wrote:Is that a reccomendation for a revision?Stan Pope wrote: Okay!
I think that the "Rules" should tell the competitor what is expected of him (e.g. car specs, behavior), and, also, what he can expect of the those who run the races. I agree that there should be some room for the organizer to "keep it fair" or "accomodate unexpected events", but I think that the groundwork needs to be laid in the communication to competitors (rules).
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
Re: 2012 Revised Rules
Been away awhile and as the Northern Star Council race chair I should probably answer ... how about the most recent...
The 5 minutes was historical from the council's rules and the next race limit was added. The 'next race' that the car is scheduled to race in can be delayed until the car is repaired if the race coordinators can handle out of sequence heats.
One of the ideas behind the council rules is to prevent parents from "buying a trophy" and to limit things to what most kids could do with limited dollars.
The axle wording is due to the inability to inspect for aftermarket axles in a typical race inspection process. Especially if the axles are in drilled holes. The cost of axles was found to be reasonable so we decided to use the wording that allows for them.
The council rules are related/derived from the PwdRacing rules for a similar division.
The 5 minutes was historical from the council's rules and the next race limit was added. The 'next race' that the car is scheduled to race in can be delayed until the car is repaired if the race coordinators can handle out of sequence heats.
One of the ideas behind the council rules is to prevent parents from "buying a trophy" and to limit things to what most kids could do with limited dollars.
The axle wording is due to the inability to inspect for aftermarket axles in a typical race inspection process. Especially if the axles are in drilled holes. The cost of axles was found to be reasonable so we decided to use the wording that allows for them.
The council rules are related/derived from the PwdRacing rules for a similar division.
Mr. Slick says: Honey, I am doing this for the kids, not myself.
- whodathunkit
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Re: 2012 Revised Rules
Revell -Monogram Is makeing two Ez Body stock cover that fits over a*5 J's* wrote:It looks like one of the collaborators found these rules to be a good start.whodathunkit wrote:*5 J's*
Your rules are starting to look like this one:
http://www.northernstarbsa.org/forms/ac ... yrules.pdf" target="_blank
Do you let the kids use finder flairs?
And do you let them use other stable materials to enhance the design?
Like what is seen in these rules.
the bsa kit. RmxRmxy8637 and Rmxy8638.
These are offically licensed by the Boy Scouts of America and are race legal.
And so was the kit seen the photo below that used a plastic cover.
What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?
Re: 2012 Revised Rules
IMO - no matter how you write your rules, they should be understood by the CUBS! Not engineers or lawyers.
For 'repair' times, help the kids have a positive experience, fix the car if possible.
For 'repair' times, help the kids have a positive experience, fix the car if possible.
My wife started a new support group... Widows of the Pinewood Derby.
Re: 2012 Revised Rules
Hey FS,FatSebastian wrote:_____________________________________________________________________
A. Wheel Alterations
Wheels cannot be reshaped to substantially reduce weight, minimize roadway contact, or alter aerodynamics. The top and edge of the tread surface may be lightly sanded or shaved to remove imperfections but the tread surface must remain parallel to the wheel bore. Each wheel will be checked for a minimum diameter of 1.170 inches and minimum width of 0.360 inches. All lettering, fluting, and other BSA identification marks must remain intact and visible.
You may add material (glue, fingernail polish, tape, etc.) behind the wheel to aid with balancing, but material may not be removed. You may “true” and polish the outer hub.
Under these rules, how would you classify removing the outer bore step on the wheel? It IS removing weight from the wheel, and it IS removing "material" from the wheel. Our District rules were very similar to the above wording last year. It caused some difficulties at inspection. This years rule are explicit that it cannot be removed.
3 Cub Dad
- FatSebastian
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Re: 2012 Revised Rules
Well, because removing the outer bore step does not seem to "substantially reduce weight, minimize roadway contact, or alter aerodynamics," I would say that it would be allowed under *5J's* rules. The reference to material being removed is, from the context referring to material behind the wheel for the purposesof balancing.3 Cub Dad wrote:Hey FS, Under these rules, how would you classify removing the outer bore step on the wheel?Wheels cannot be reshaped to substantially reduce weight, minimize roadway contact, or alter aerodynamics.
(The rule quoted was contributed by *5J's* and I think originates from Northern Star Council.)
Re: 2012 Revised Rules
FS,FatSebastian wrote:Well, because removing the outer bore step does not seem to "substantially reduce weight, minimize roadway contact, or alter aerodynamics," I would say that it would be allowed under *5J's* rules. The reference to material being removed is, from the context referring to material behind the wheel for the purposesof balancing.3 Cub Dad wrote: Hey FS, Under these rules, how would you classify removing the outer bore step on the wheel?
(The rule quoted was contributed by *5J's* and I think originates from Northern Star Council.)
My previous comment was kind of tounge-in-cheek, but you did inadvertantly make my point that sometimes the attempt to over-simplify rules to save ink, can cause more problems. Your first comment was that it didn't "substantially" reduce the weight. How do you define "substantial"? 5%? 10%? 20%? 50%? Removing the hub is a weight reduction in the neighborhood of 4%.
The second comment says that you have to take the prohibition against removing material in "context". So now the reader has to attempt to discern the "context". Well even the point of "context" here could be argued, because the very next sentence of the same paragraph specifically says what you CAN do to the bores.
The "context" issue, or the "implied" rule, is the one that causes the most problems! Because different people will honestly disagree and some will swear it's against the rules and cheating, and some will swear that that's not what is "meant" by the rule
As a side note, we've run some experiments with it, and the hub removal has a lot more impact on performance than just the weight reduction. For this reason, and a couple of others that I won't go into here, it is explicitly not allowed in our district rules.
My main thought is that where a rule can honestly be interpreted two totally different ways, than err on the side of being explicit so as to prevent hard feelings and incidents that can get ugly!
3 Cub Dad