2012 Revised Rules

[*5 J's*]

Gents - below are the revised rules our District is reviewing. I recognize some rules seem a bit redundant or overstated, but the feeling was to restate it relates to areas where we have had issues in the past. Take a look and let me know your thoughts.

*5 J's*

2012 District Pinewood Derby Rules
The purpose of the Pinewood Derby is to provide a positive experience for the child, the parents, the Pack, and the Chartered Partner with the emphasis on THE CHILD

GENERAL:
The race is open to all Tiger Scouts, Cub Scouts and Webelos Scouts (1st year, 2nd year or just graduated to Boy Scouts) registered in a Pack in the District. In these rules the Scouts will be referred to as “Drivers”, parents/guardians will be referred to as “Pit Crew”. All cars competing in the 2012 District Pinewood Derby must have been made for a 2012 Pack Pinewood Derby. Cars made for any previous year pinewood derby are not acceptable.

ELIGIBILITY:
The top five finishers from each individual Pack Pinewood Derby are eligible to compete in the District Pinewood Derby. If a racer cannot attend the District Derby the racer may have another scout race his car or an alternate driver may be chosen to represent the pack or district. This will be left to the respective Pack’s to decide. Adults will not be allowed to race a car in the event that the youth cannot attend the event.

CAR SPECS:
Pinewood derby racecars will be built from an Official Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Kit. This kit includes the pinewood block, axles, and wheels necessary to build car. The purchase of machined wheels and polished axles from other suppliers is prohibited. If replacement parts are needed they must be purchased as unmodified official BSA parts. This includes wheels and axles. Decorative items such as steering wheels, drivers, spoilers, decals and interior details are permissible as long as the finished car meets the rules and specifications. Drivers are encouraged not to promote the use of alcoholic beverages or tobacco products by the use of decals advertising these products when decorating their racecars.

A. Body - The main body structure must be made of the wood block from the official kit. Cars that were purchased completed may not be used. Cars must be tuned or aligned by the racer and may not be sent to third party facilities for tuning or other performance enhancements. Adult supervision is encouraged.

B. Width - Not to exceed 2 3/4 inches
C. Length - Not to exceed 7 inches
D. Weight - Not to exceed 5.0 ounces
E. Height - Not to exceed 3 inches
F. Center Rail Width Clearance – Must clear center guide rails, typically no less than 1-3/4 inches minimum.
G. Bottom Clearance - Must clear center guide rails, typically no less than less than 3/8 inches from track surface.

H. Wheelbase – The use of the pre-cut axles locations in the official pinewood car block is recommended but not required. The use of axle holes is allowed. If the existing slots are not used, the following dimensions must be maintained:
• Nominal wheelbase of 4 3/8 inches
• Dimension of 15/16 inch from one end of the block to the axle
• Dimension of 1 11/16 inch from the other end of the block to the axle.

I. Front End – Depending upon the track, the front of the car may rest against a short starting pin. We therefore require that the front bottom of the car which rests on the pin is no higher than 1" above the track. The front end must be at least ½ inches wide in the middle. No part of the car can extend beyond the starting pin.

J. Miscellaneous -
The following items are PROHIBITED:
• Starting devices, or propellants of any kind
• Electronic or lighting devices that interfere with the race electronics.
• Liquids, wet paint, oil, sticky substance, or powders of any kind (other than axle lubrication)
• Glass or excessively fragile parts
• Springs, bearings, bushings, washers, sleeves, hubcaps or inserts attached to or in contact with the axle, body or wheels.
• Loose objects on car
• Magnets
• No part of any car or attachment to any car that is metal, pointed, sharp, and/or jagged may be capable of contacting any part of the track.

WHEELS:
Only Official Scout Grand Prix wheels will be allowed. The purchase of colored or replacement wheels is allowed provided they are official BSA parts. All lettering, both inside and outside, must remain and be visible. The fluting and other BSA markings on the outside wheel area must remain visible. Outer wheel surface may be lightly sanded or shaved but must not be reshaped in any way in an attempt to lighten the wheel, minimize tread contact, or alter aerodynamics. A minimum wheel diameter of 1.170” and width of 0.360” must be maintained. Tread surface must be flat and parallel to the wheel bore. You may true the hubs. You may add material to the inside of the wheel to aid in balancing (glue, fingernail polish, tape) of the wheel, but no material may be removed.
The following are PROHIBITED:
• The purchase of polished or machined wheels from other suppliers
• Rounding of wheel edges
• Grooving, H-cutting or V-cutting
• Altering of wheel profile
• Drilling sidewalls
• Hollowing, sanding, or otherwise removing or modifying material from inside the wheel
• Filling of any wheel surface with any type of material
• Wheel covers or hubcaps
There must be at least four wheels on the car, however, it is not required that all four wheels make contact with the track surface.
Each wheel must be mounted on an axle, on the outside of the car, in the vertical position, at no more than a 45 degree angle. Each wheel must be attached directly to the car by an axle and spin freely. Please note: There are aftermarket modified wheels that are LIGHTENED. This is usually done by turning the wheels on a lathe and removing material from the inside of the wheel. These wheels are NOT allowed and EASILY RECOGNIZED at inspection. Cars with these wheels will not be permitted to race. No part of the car, or any attachment to the car, may be capable of coming into contact with the track other than the wheel(s).

AXLES:
BSA nail type axles are required with an overall diameter of no less than .084 inches for each wheel. The purchase of replacement axles is allowed provided they are official BSA parts. Removing crimp marks/burrs and polishing are allowed as long as overall diameter is not reduced below .084 requirements. Axles must not be connected to any device that mechanically alters rotation and spin. Axles must be mounted into the wood sections of car. Drilled holes or slots can be used; however, axles must be visible upon request.
The following are PROHIBITED:
• The purchase of polished or machined axles from other suppliers
• Grooved axles

LUBRICATION:
Approved lubricants include (but are not limited to) graphite, Teflon, Nyloil, and Krytox. Over-application of lubricant which results in excessive shedding onto the track is not allowed. Cars will be lubricated before registration/inspection. No other lubricating will be allowed once the car has passed inspection.

INSPECTION:
Each car must pass inspection by the Official Inspection Committee before it may compete. After acceptance only the drivers may handle the cars. Once cars have been registered, weighed, and inspected, they will remain in the custody of the Pack and District Race Officials until the end of the competition. Any driver (including a member of the pit crew) has the right to appeal to the race officials for an interpretation of these rules. The race officials, by majority vote, will be the final interpreters of these rules. However, an interpretation of the rules at the pack level does not necessarily ensure a similar interpretation at the district level. All rulings by the Race Officials at each level of competition will be considered final. The Pack or District Inspection Team will weigh all cars at registration. The readings of the Official Race Scale at each event will be considered final. It is possible scale measurements will differ between the Pack and District Pinewood Derbies. Drivers and their pit crews must be prepared to adjust weight to meet the readings of the Official Race Scale at each level of competition.

REPAIRS:
If a car suffers a mechanical problem during a race (loses an axle, breaks a wheel, etc.), the driver or his pit crew will have up to five minutes to fix the car. The driver will then be allowed to race his car. If repairs cannot be made in this time frame, the car will be disqualified. If a car suffers a mechanical problem after a race, the driver or his pit crew will have five minutes or until the next race to fix the car. If repairs cannot be made in this time frame, the car will be disqualified.

BEST OF SHOW:
Each Pack will determine a “Best of Show” (BOS) car to send to the District Pinewood Derby. All BOS cars are required to meet the same rules and regulations as stated in the Pinewood Derby rules. BOS cars must be race able cars and pass the same inspections as top 5 racers, and have raced in a 2012 Pinewood Derby Race. Although a BOS car need not qualify for the District races, if the car does qualify as a top racer, they can still compete in the District race. BOS cars that do not qualify for their Pack Pinewood Derby or were made for a prior year's derby will be disqualified.

POST-RACE INSPECTION:
All cars placing in the top 5 will be subject to a post race inspection. Wheels and axles will be removed and checked at this time.

[pack529holycross]

I have a few questions...

Kid enters race with revell, bsa approved precut body kit. Are those bsa officially recognized kits also recognized as approved in these rules?

Do you have council races? I personally would object to having a "di aled in" car torn down after a race. Either they are cleared for racing or nit at the beginning of theevent

[*5 J's*]

I have a few questions...

Kid enters race with revell, bsa approved precut body kit. Are those bsa officially recognized kits also recognized as approved in these rules?

Do you have council races? I personally would object to having a "di aled in" car torn down after a race. Either they are cleared for racing or nit at the beginning of theevent

I would say no to the precut body but I will bring this up to the rules comittee (exactly the type of feedback I am looking for). Though I would be careful not to accuse a scout of having a precut kit. Perhaps the scout liked the precut design and copied it.

No we do not have a council race. That is one question I have for the committee - would we actually pull the cars apart? Unfortunately it's the only way I know to check for grooved axles. How could I enforce a no lathed axles rules at checkin? I struggle with this one.

[FatSebastian]

I recognize some rules seem a bit redundant or overstated, but the feeling was to restate it relates to areas where we have had issues in the past. Take a look and let me know your thoughts.

These rules appear very mature in their compilation, such that I presume that you are looking for weaknesses? If so, the admitted redundancies or overstatements may be where the biggest improvements might be had. Two reasons why I might say this:

1. For some, repetition may raise questions about what the rules are actually trying to say, rather than offering clarity. If I see what I think may be same sentiment repeated two or three times in a row, I start to wonder if I should be reading more into what is being stating (why would a sentiment be repeated unless it was trying to say something different than the obvious?). For example, "Tread surface must be flat" seems relatively straightforward; to also forbid: "Rounding of wheel edges", "Grooving, H-cutting or V-cutting", and "Altering of wheel profile" all seem to be describing the same sort of thing but to varying degrees of technicality (to a veteran Pinehead at least). However, what might "V-cutting" mean to somebody who's never heard of that? What is meant by a "wheel profile"? What is "rounding" the "edge" of a wheel -- isn't the edge of a wheel already round? The added information might raise more questions than it answers for some people. (Tread is not specifically mentioned when discussing "profile", "cutting" or "grooving".)

2. The Cub Scout Leader How-To book suggests "The program committee for every derby will need to [...] provide each pack family with a set of simple, uncomplicated rules..." Repetition and overstatement adds to what are already seemingly lengthy rules. I counted approximately 1600 words which is longer than the US Declaration of Independence (compare to the Rules-in-the-Box which has ~160 words -- ten-times less). Perhaps there might be a tendency for people to neglect / forget some rules buried in a lengthy document, or is there a risk of "TL;DR"? It might be a good exercise to go through the language and edit out every unnecessary word and see what results; a sentence like "Axles must be mounted into the wood sections of car" (10 words) seems like it could be safely shortened to "Axles shall mount into wood" (5 words) without confusion, for example.

[Darin McGrew]

H. Wheelbase – The use of the pre-cut axles locations in the official pinewood car block is recommended but not required. The use of axle holes is allowed. If the existing slots are not used, the following dimensions must be maintained:
• Nominal wheelbase of 4 3/8 inches
• Dimension of 15/16 inch from one end of the block to the axle
• Dimension of 1 11/16 inch from the other end of the block to the axle.

This works only if the car is exactly 7" long. That means that cars that are shorter than 7" (say, only 6 15/16") must use the axle slots.

Interestingly enough, if you do use the axle slots, then there is nothing wrong with cutting off part of the back of the block and gluing it to the front. But you couldn't make a car of similar dimensions without using the axle slots.

You may add material to the inside of the wheel to aid in balancing (glue, fingernail polish, tape) of the wheel, but no material may be removed.
The following are PROHIBITED:
[...]
• Filling of any wheel surface with any type of material

This seems contradictory to me.

POST-RACE INSPECTION:
All cars placing in the top 5 will be subject to a post race inspection. Wheels and axles will be removed and checked at this time.

I still dislike tear-down inspections.

[*5 J's*]

I recognize some rules seem a bit redundant or overstated, but the feeling was to restate it relates to areas where we have had issues in the past. Take a look and let me know your thoughts.

These rules appear very mature in their compilation, such that I presume that you are looking for weaknesses? If so, the admitted redundancies or overstatements may be where the biggest improvements might be had.

I agree FS. This is one area I am goig to reccomend the rules committee consider cleaning up. We have yet to meet one-on-one. So far the collaboration has been via email exchange.

H. Wheelbase – The use of the pre-cut axles locations in the official pinewood car block is recommended but not required. The use of axle holes is allowed. If the existing slots are not used, the following dimensions must be maintained:
• Nominal wheelbase of 4 3/8 inches
• Dimension of 15/16 inch from one end of the block to the axle
• Dimension of 1 11/16 inch from the other end of the block to the axle.

This works only if the car is exactly 7" long. That means that cars that are shorter than 7" (say, only 6 15/16") must use the axle slots..

I see what you are saying and I'm sure you understand the intent. Any reccomended rewording? The given dimensions are from the uncut or raw block

Interestingly enough, if you do use the axle slots, then there is nothing wrong with cutting off part of the back of the block and gluing it to the front. But you couldn't make a car of similar dimensions without using the axle slots.

No - we do not want that, suggestions? Perhaps eliminate the words "if the slots are not used"?

You may add material to the inside of the wheel to aid in balancing (glue, fingernail polish, tape) of the wheel, but no material may be removed.
The following are PROHIBITED:
[...]
• Filling of any wheel surface with any type of material

This seems contradictory to me.

yes I does to me as well. Not sure why the filling the wheels surface is prohibited. What could one do by filling the wheel surface. I guess I would reccomend deleting this from prohibited. Anybody have any insight on where this rule could be coming from? (much is copied from other councils rules)

POST-RACE INSPECTION:
All cars placing in the top 5 will be subject to a post race inspection. Wheels and axles will be removed and checked at this time.

I still dislike tear-down inspections.

As do I. The only other option would be to allow grooved axles as it's the only thing you really cannot confirm at check in. Lightened wheels are tough, but with the Max-V gauge and trained inspectors I think we can catch lightened wheels. Grooved axles really don't offer that much in the way of speed.

Thanks gents for your feedback.

[Darin McGrew]

This works only if the car is exactly 7" long. That means that cars that are shorter than 7" (say, only 6 15/16") must use the axle slots..

I see what you are saying and I'm sure you understand the intent. Any reccomended rewording? The given dimensions are from the uncut or raw block

If I understand the intent, then I think restricting the wheelbase to 4 3/8" and restricting the maximum dimension from the axles to the ends of the blocks would be fine.

Interestingly enough, if you do use the axle slots, then there is nothing wrong with cutting off part of the back of the block and gluing it to the front. But you couldn't make a car of similar dimensions without using the axle slots.

No - we do not want that, suggestions? Perhaps eliminate the words "if the slots are not used"?

Yes, if you really want to restrict designs that way. Although the location of the slots varies from what I hear, so you may want to specify the acceptable variation from exactly a 4 3/8" wheelbase. Of course, as soon as you do that, everyone will start extending their wheelbase by exactly that variation...

[rpcarpe]

5J's,
I like the opening statement about the purpose of the PWD.
The rest of the rules look way too long and complicated for the average 8 yr old Wolf, let alone 5 yr old Tigers.

I boiled down some rules to these simple ten.
The added quotes are just for emphasis on the tone of the process.

2012
"The purpose of the Pinewood Derby is to provide a positive experience for the organization, the parents and the child with the emphasis on the child."

"Innovate and Educate, Don't Legislate!"

1. You must use official BSA Pinewood Derby bodies, wheels and axles. Use of pre-cut bodies is prohibited. BSA Grand Prix Pinewood Derby wheels and axles that have been altered and re-sold by third parties are prohibited.

2. Weight: 5.00 ounces or less. The official scale is final.

3. Dimensions: Length: 7 inches maximum, Width: 2 3/4” maximum, Height 4” maximum. Must clear 3/8” high center guide. Car wheels must be at least 1 5/8” apart to straddle a center guide.

4. Gravity powered only. No power assist devices such as rubber bands or magnets.

5. No additional items may be added to the wheels or axles such as washers, springs, bearings, bushings, o-rings, etc.

6. Wheel diameters cannot be increased, bore diameters cannot be decreased.

7. Lubrication cannot leak or foul the track.

8. In addition to the individual competition, each den competes as a team. The den with the best overall result wins the Team Trophy.

9. Cars will be checked in/out by the scout, and only handled by the scout. If needed, adults may assist with repairs.

10. The winning racer, not the parent, in each category must give a short speech on their best speed secrets upon presentation of their award. The committee decides the number of winners who must talk. Be prepared.

"The Pinewood Derby is NOT about building cars, it’s about building scouts."

"The officials for this Derby are volunteers. Before you criticize their decisions, be prepared to take their place."

Good luck trying to get some simple rules put in place, I find varying degrees of resistance at all levels. But once these types of rules are in place, people really ENJOY the pinewood derby!

[*5 J's*]

I see what you are saying and I'm sure you understand the intent. Any reccomended rewording? The given dimensions are from the uncut or raw block

If I understand the intent, then I think restricting the wheelbase to 4 3/8" and restricting the maximum dimension from the axles to the ends of the blocks would be fine.

I do not want people moving the location of the rear holes to 5/8" from the rear. If I said maximum dimension from the rear axle to the end of the block is 15/16", wouldn't drilling holes at 5/8" be legal? That is not what we want. We don't want any cutting of the back and installing on the front. We want all to use the dimensions as the slots are cut.

No - we do not want that, suggestions? Perhaps eliminate the words "if the slots are not used"?

Yes, if you really want to restrict designs that way. Although the location of the slots varies from what I hear, so you may want to specify the acceptable variation from exactly a 4 3/8" wheelbase. Of course, as soon as you do that, everyone will start extending their wheelbase by exactly that variation...

We measure with the Max-V inspection box marked for 4 3/8" wheelbase so we don't get that picky where I think I need to specify a tolerance.

[FatSebastian]

I still dislike tear-down inspections.

As do I. The only other option would be to allow grooved axles as it's the only thing you really cannot confirm at check in. [...] Grooved axles really don't offer that much in the way of speed.

There are lots of potential drawbacks to post-race tear-down inspections, including that it goes against the intent of the BSA expressed in the rules included with every kit: "After final approval, cars will not be re-inspected unless the car is damaged..." I agree with *5J's* that grooved axles are not a silver bullet, such that allowing them seems to be a reasoned approach.

[Darin McGrew]

If I understand the intent, then I think restricting the wheelbase to 4 3/8" and restricting the maximum dimension from the axles to the ends of the blocks would be fine.

I do not want people moving the location of the rear holes to 5/8" from the rear. If I said maximum dimension from the rear axle to the end of the block is 15/16", wouldn't drilling holes at 5/8" be legal? That is not what we want. We don't want any cutting of the back and installing on the front. We want all to use the dimensions as the slots are cut.

You've restricted the wheelbase to 4 3/8". You've restricted the maximum distance between the front axle and the front of the car to 1 11/16". That means that the only way for the rear axle to be 5/8" from the rear of the car is if they remove 5/16" from the rear of the car, simply shortening the car. I don't understand why shortening the car is a problem. Lots of kids shorten their cars (either on purpose, or accidentally by sanding them too much).

Personally, I don't think moving axle locations is that hard for kids to do. And I certainly don't think that cutting a piece of wood off the block and gluing it back onto the block somewhere else is that hard for kids to do. But our rules are less restrictive than yours in a lot of ways.

[*5 J's*]

I do not want people moving the location of the rear holes to 5/8" from the rear. If I said maximum dimension from the rear axle to the end of the block is 15/16", wouldn't drilling holes at 5/8" be legal? That is not what we want. We don't want any cutting of the back and installing on the front. We want all to use the dimensions as the slots are cut.

You've restricted the wheelbase to 4 3/8". You've restricted the maximum distance between the front axle and the front of the car to 1 11/16". That means that the only way for the rear axle to be 5/8" from the rear of the car is if they remove 5/16" from the rear of the car, simply shortening the car. I don't understand why shortening the car is a problem. Lots of kids shorten their cars (either on purpose, or accidentally by sanding them too much).

Personally, I don't think moving axle locations is that hard for kids to do. And I certainly don't think that cutting a piece of wood off the block and gluing it back onto the block somewhere else is that hard for kids to do. But our rules are less restrictive than yours in a lot of ways.

Shortening a car is fine. Cutting the rear off and relocating is not. It's not a matter of ease - i's a matter of setting some basic boundaries. Such as weight at 5oz. It is easy to add more - but we set it at 5oz.

Someday we allow extended wheelbases - but for now we prefer to keep the "stock" location as it comes out of the box. We understand that the slots are not always parallel or square to the body so we allow drilling - as long as the dimensions are not changed from the slots.

[*5 J's*]

I still dislike tear-down inspections.

As do I. The only other option would be to allow grooved axles as it's the only thing you really cannot confirm at check in. [...] Grooved axles really don't offer that much in the way of speed.

There are lots of potential drawbacks to post-race tear-down inspections, including that it goes against the intent of the BSA expressed in the rules included with every kit: "After final approval, cars will not be re-inspected unless the car is damaged..." I agree with *5J's* that grooved axles are not a silver bullet, such that allowing them seems to be a reasoned approach.

I will discuss with the rules comittee. The dilemma is we really don't want to allow grooved axles. We don't want a rule we cannot inspect for or enforce. We don't really want a post race tear down.

[FatSebastian]

The dilemma is we really don't want to allow grooved axles.

I can understand a rule against machined axles, but why not allow grooved axles? It requires no special skill or tooling for a child to create grooves with a small file; some likely do it unintentionally. I know my kids find it easier to simply file away the crimp marks into a slight recess (groove) rather than polish that part of the axle to perfection.

We don't really want a post race tear down.

The specification for axles is "overall diameter" of 0.084"; although I'm not sure how "overall" would be interpreted by the reader. Regardless, a tear-down inspection seems necessary to enforce this specification regardless of whether there are grooves or not.

[*5 J's*]

The dilemma is we really don't want to allow grooved axles.

I can understand a rule against machined axles, but why not allow grooved axles? It requires no special skill or tooling for a child to create grooves with a small file; some likely do it unintentionally. I know my kids find it easier to simply file away the crimp marks into a slight recess (groove) rather than polish that part of the axle to perfection.

Not sure.

We don't really want a post race tear down.

The specification for axles is "overall diameter" of 0.084"; although I'm not sure how "overall" would be interpreted by the reader. Regardless, a tear-down inspection seems necessary to enforce this specification regardless of whether there are grooves or not.

Certainly we are not the only district that has a minimum diamter rule. I would like to hear how others enforce this.