Graphite pads via water?

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Teeeman
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Graphite pads via water?

Post by Teeeman » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:07 pm

I know you can make some really fast cars using a mix of oil and graphite, forming essentially a bushing of 'graphite pads'.

Can you form the pads using water?


What happens when the water dries?

(thanks!)


-Terry


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doct1010
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by doct1010 » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:36 pm

Tman,
Inside hub or on boby?



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Stan Pope
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by Stan Pope » Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:19 pm

doct1010 wrote:Tman,
Inside hub or on boby?
Context says "inside hub"! (That is where Doc Jobe's oil-graphite "pads" are formed.)


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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by doct1010 » Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:23 pm

Thanks Stan. I plead ignorance re: all things Jobe.

He said bushing, brought to mind body cone built up with graphite and nail polish or other medium.



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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by sporty » Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:47 pm

Teeman, hay there stranger !!

What are you upto ? what ya working on ?


Sporty



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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by Teeeman » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:41 pm

Hey everbody... wow, it has been a while!... I got busy with other things and didn't really pay much mind to how inactive I've been...

My involvement with PWD is that we haven't raced in 2 years (son is too old, I'm not interested in league racing drama) ... about a month ago I helped our former Pack, helped with judging looks and trained 2 new speed judges... my son played during test and tune with his old cars, then helped judge the next day :) it was fun!

This weekend I was a speed judge for the local District.

My post's subject matter is about forming bushings from graphite inside the bore... we're seeing more and more of that around here I think...

I left this weekend's race early (I knew there would be a post-race tear down most likely and there was). :sick:

What I have learned from the guys there:
2 of 3 dads in the "breakaway" group admitted to liquids (not allowed) but said they used simply water...

... so I am trying to learn more...


... helps me know if we're being taught something new or lied to ;)


Sadly though there is a pretty good chance one of the DQ'd cars may have been legit... that is the problem in my opinion with post race teardown...

... another major problem, the tear down was not handled scientifically to my liking... I am going to discuss this further with the gent who did it. His heart was in the right place but the pendulum of justice may have swung too far... meaning it is better to let a cheat get by than to penalize an honest family.

I'm distraught about the whole thing...

... but I also do not dismiss that the folks may have actually been cheating too, there are some indications they may have been... breakaway group of top times for these 4 cars, and they all had the mysterious "pads" (bushing?) in the wheel bores I was told (same thing I saw with my own eyes at Council last spring)...

The family that is in doubt as to having cheated is because the dad sent out a 4 page explanation letter emphasizing all the things that went wrong, and gave a detailed explanation of how they graphite (with Max V lube) their cars...

same way we used to grapite our cars... but...

none of our cars ever developed pads on 2 year's ago's Max V graphite...

... maybe graphite has changed (they added something?) or there is a technique to create the pads without use of a binder such as oil (or water?)...


... 2 of the DQ's dads claimed water, so I am trying put a little heat and pressure on that theory to see if a diamond or a lump of coal emerges...

... the expertise of this group is the heat and pressure ;)



:)


-T

The only thing for sure is the judge doing tear down interviewed each Cub and it was clear and even admitted by 2 of them that they had almost nothing to do with the builds... one dad even argued "hey, we all know the dad's build the cars at this race".
(rolling eyes)

I can promise that my son could have answered those same questions in nauseating detail ... but that is something we judges can't really control sadly.


"I dunno..." - Uncle Eddie, Christmas Vacation

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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by FatSebastian » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:58 pm

Teeeman wrote:Subject matter is forming bushings from graphite inside the bore... we're seeing more and more of that around here
This is interesting. Can you add anymore detail? Is there evidence of fresh liquid or is the bushing "dry" at teardown. Are we talking about substantially visible amounts of graphite?
Teeeman wrote:I left this weekend's race early (I knew there would be a post-race tear down most likely and there was).
Doesn't a post-race teardown discourage cheating? (If not, why take the risk?)
Stan Pope wrote:Context says "inside hub"! (That is where Doc Jobe's oil-graphite "pads" are formed.)
My understanding of Jobe's oil/graphite combo lube process is that it is a slight amount of his Super-Z oil applied to an axle to which an invisible ("monomolecular") layer of graphite that has been applied. Does he have an additional process that involves substantial amounts of graphite?



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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by Kenny » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:44 pm

Good to CU postin' again Teeeman.

Not seen anything like that around my neighborhood. Most of the new developments have been some newer hybrid liquid lubes after the graphite+moly powders and of course Krytox.

Straight water sounds a little fishy to me...

Very sorry to hear this happened, especially feel bad for the Scouts. Anxious to hear the outcome of your "inquisitorial research."

K



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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by psycaz » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:49 pm

Can I second a request for someone to tell us exactly (if someone knows) how to do this?

I would love to play around with the idea. I don't know how it would be faster. You would almost have to make a graphite cement and fill the bore and redrill. Otherwise, if even slightly lose, wouldn't it be like over graphiting and be detrimental. Obviously not if top 4 were clearly faster using the method.



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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by FatSebastian » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:54 pm

psycaz wrote:Can I second a request for someone to tell us exactly (if someone knows) how to do this?
Here is a DT topic that discusses someone's video of a graphite-packing procedure, but it didn't seem to involve liquids.



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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by psycaz » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:02 pm

FatSebastian wrote:
psycaz wrote:Can I second a request for someone to tell us exactly (if someone knows) how to do this?
Here is a DT topic that discusses someone's video of a graphite-packing procedure, but it didn't seem to involve liquids.
Reading that thread, everyone thought the same thing I did. Maybe the liquid makes that much of a huge difference?

Would love to know the process involved. Can't see where it would be worth it unless you managed to make cement for a bushing.



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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by FatSebastian » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:18 pm

FatSebastian wrote:Here is a DT topic that discusses someone's video of a graphite-packing procedure, but it didn't seem to involve liquids.
A little Googling shows that this video belongs to an eBay reseller. If you look at his auction for his $9.95 "Pinewood Derby BSA Wheel Axle Graphite Lube Packing Kit", there is a picture of his graphite bushing:

"When you have a product that is fine enough, it compacts and retains that shape. I have researched that a packed hub will last 8-10 races as long as the car is not dropped. What does that mean? I have found a product that you can basically make a graphite bearing."

So it seems that he is basically packing the recessed part of the inner hub with graphite, rather than a substantial length of the bore. (The graphite packer looks like a foam mini-paint-roller sponge or ink applicator.)
Teeeman wrote:... maybe graphite has changed (they added something?) or there is a technique to create the pads without use of a binder such as oil (or water?)...
T-Man, is this the technique you are referencing when you say "graphite pads"? If so, it seems possible to do without any liquid, if the graphite is fine enough.
Last edited by FatSebastian on Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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pwrd by tungsten
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by pwrd by tungsten » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:37 pm

The last one is Graphite and alcohol perhaps? ... However easy enought to test... mix graphite with alcohol and coat some axles and see what happens.... This should be legal because of evaporation perhaps???? If you made it on your own...

http://www.tractorsupply.com/agricultur ... %20Aerosol" target="_blank
http://www.napaonline.com/Search/Detail ... 0006382728" target="_blank
http://www.napaonline.com/Search/Detail ... 0075098551" target="_blank


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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by Stan Pope » Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:48 pm

FatSebastian wrote:
psycaz wrote:Can I second a request for someone to tell us exactly (if someone knows) how to do this?
Here is a DT topic that discusses someone's video of a graphite-packing procedure, but it didn't seem to involve liquids.
That is not it!

The process to which Teeeman refers is this: In his "big green book", Jobe describes a process in which a modest amount of graphite is coated on the bore, the axle inserted, a drop (or maybe it was a drop from each end) of "evaporated aerosol liquid" is introduced, and the wheel given a run or two on a car. The end result is "islands" of graphite (+ liquid?) arrayed around the bore that apparently have substantial lifetime and very low Cf. The visual appearance of the bore is very characteristic with only slight magnification, but of course requires disassembly to show. Doc was reported to have said that it would require spectroscopic analysis to prove contents.

The method raises concern since it violates their local rule that prohibits "liquid lubes".

In spite of requests to help this situation by simply allowing liquid lubes, the council has retained this prohibition.


Stan
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by pwrd by tungsten » Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:56 pm

Allowing liquid lubes solve the entire problem. :D


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