Do Rules Help?

[rpcarpe]

One quick comment on technology and tools:
If the Workshop/Garage/ or whatever is OPEN to folks, then the rules committe should NOT take away those opportunities.

[slipperyfrog]

The big issue we (and I mean I) is in lightening wheels using lathes or other expensive equipment.

Although, lightening wheels need not always require expensive equipment.

Excellent link! Shows that some thought and effort can go a long way.

Of course most would ban this anyway because one of the pack's little Timmy would lose to razor wheels Johnny.

[Darin McGrew]

One quick comment on technology and tools:
If the Workshop/Garage/ or whatever is OPEN to folks, then the rules committe should NOT take away those opportunities.

I'm confused. Why would we organize a workshop, and then have our rules committee do anything to keep people away from the workshop?

[resullivan]

I think his point is that if provisions are made to help those wanting and willing to make a fast car then why make rules to help those that do not want to put in the time to be more competitive.

[rpcarpe]

EXACTLY!
The one thing that frustrates parents the most is Scout stores that sell BSA approved tools, and organizations that outlaw their use.

Working Pit at District last year, single Mom & son show up with a good copy of David Meade's Ultimate car body, complete with 'cheater' bar.
They did not understand why the Scout store would sell the book, and many of the tools and then the District outlawed it. Inspectors were less than cordial, and they were both about to cry.

[slipperyfrog]

EXACTLY!
The one thing that frustrates parents the most is Scout stores that sell BSA approved tools, and organizations that outlaw their use.

Working Pit at District last year, single Mom & son show up with a good copy of David Meade's Ultimate car body, complete with 'cheater' bar.
They did not understand why the Scout store would sell the book, and many of the tools and then the District outlawed it. Inspectors were less than cordial, and they were both about to cry.

This is part of the reason I throw my hat in the ring of "toss it all out the door and just use the rules on the box" and then keep the prize small ~ the winner's circle non grandiose.

I have seen too many situations like this such as single mom's with sons, nervous outcast boys, low self esteem kids that try something like what is mentioned in Scout Store products. They are mighty proud of their work and excited to race. Then some high & mighty inspector goes down the line mental on them. "Sorry M'am but the blue wheels you bought at the scout store are not the ones provided in the box. You will have to replace them or do not race." Bah some people need to come back to reality & get a life. I have seen good honest people say goodbye to the scouting organization and never come back. That is wrong.

[Stan Pope]

... and then keep the prize small ~ the winner's circle non grandiose...

When part of the prize for doing well in the pack derby is a ticket to race in the district derby, it is hard to keep the prize really small! Yes, 1st through 4th place in each grade win that ticket, but that still leaves a few boys out. (The value of "selective but not too selective" participation in the district derby is well established, not only for the district event, but also in the excitement it adds to each pack's derby.)

Most of us who try to define the boundaries of competition also try to stay abreast of what the Scout Shop is doing, and when a product like the colored wheel kits are added to the inventory, we amend the rules accordingly, unless there is a good reason not to ... such as if the red wheels came out of the tube weighing 1.1 grams with 0.092" bores, runouts of 0.0001", beautifully turned out axles ... and a $20 price tag. Now, those red wheels wouldn't be "silver bullets", but they would offset a bunch of less than superior work.

In defining the boundaries of competition we try to
1. keep the overall effort required within reason,
2. keep the value of various more difficult products consistent, and
3. avoid areas where $'s spent becomes pertinent.

There is plenty of room for innovation and for learning some good science without distorting the view of a PW car to run on wheels that are disks with pinhole bores, weighting the car with plutonium, and propelling it with gravity benders! (Although I think I would allow the latter in my races!)

[Derby Evolution]

Keeping rules simple and easy to enforce is important! The rules should clearly spell out what is not legal, not what is legal. By saying that something is legal it sometimes limits peoples ideas and gives people the impression that it is the only way. I believe a good way to do this is to provide people with the rules and then on separate paper a list of derby sites that they can get ideas from. This encourages people to search out ideas for their builds. Children today have access to the internet in many ways Ipods, video game systems, computers, ect. Given the chance many scouts and parents will look up info, but a lot of them do not realize it is out there or know where to look.

As far as aftermarket parts. How does one know that the parts are purchased aftermarket and not created by the scout. I have seen videos here on this site of scouts lathe turning wheels. What if a father owns a mini lathe and allows his scout to use it to create perfect wheels. Would it not be better to give some specs for the wheels.

As far as purchased cars, how do you know that the car is purchased? With all the info that is on this site and other derby related sites, people could build cars that might appear to be purchased that are not. As was mentioned in another post, parents and scout sometimes choose to copy cars they see elsewhere. How many of you guys have gone on Ebay or other sites to look at various cars? Did you not get ideas for your own cars from some of these cars? Would it then not be reasonable to think that scouts and parents would also look at these same sites to get ideas for their own cars?

[FatSebastian]

IMO the rules should be very simple...

This is also the opinion of the BSA. The Cub Scout Leader How-To book recommends "The program committee for every derby will need to [...] provide each pack family with a set of simple, uncomplicated rules..."

[PWD]

Great thread and enjoying the discussion.

The fundamental aspect of Pinewood derby that has made it so enjoyable for me and my boys over the last 13+ years is also what also causes the black eye of pinewood derby and a feeling of many that people are cheating. There is an attempt to manage it through rules and enforcement of the rules but you will never get there.

There is an incredible inexactness with Pinewood derby. It is something that took me many years to fully appreciate and understand. This inexactness and the inability to clearly understand why one car is faster than another causes people to suspect cheating.

We been there ourselves very early. In our second year we race on two tracks. Preliminary race on one and finals on a second. We blew away the competition on the preliminary but fell short on the finals. When we got the car home after the race and it was still running properly on our track I was convinced something was wrong. Intentional or accidental. It was not until two years later that I understood the difference in the tracks caused the difference. It was not something underhanded.

This is what I believe happens. 99% of the people involved in PWD are not as committed as myself and many on DT. So they can not understand why a car is so much faster than their car. So they quickly jump to they must have cheated. There starts being more noise about it and without any real evidence the rules are changed to "level the playing field". We must stop these cheaters. That is the only reason why they win all the time.

Yes I believe we have to have rules. But I believe a key goal of the rules should be to make it as difficult as possible for someone to suspect cheating. I believe relatively liberal rules makes this possible. The other key goal should be to make it possible for a scout to be able actually build their own car and still pass inspection. I just can not understand the thinking behind a rule such that four have to be on the floor. The rule drives me crazy. It drives me even more crazy when they put this rule in place and then never enforce it. Don't interpret this that I think they should send the kids home with a DQ. But rather the obvious action is do not put a rule like this in place.

So on alignment liberal. On the lighten wheels I like the liberal aspect and taking the suspecting cheating off the table. But this entire third party market of lighten wheels that now exist screws this up. So I think you have to nix allowing lighten wheels. But otherwise with the new wheels limiting sanding, removing the step are not very big issues. The advantage is not that great and these things can be done without purchasing. I actually do support requiring the step be intact only because I don't believe the vendors sell prepped wheels with the step left alone. So a sneaky way to limit vendor wheels and a rule that can clearly be enforced. On the axles I would definitely allow grooves. I have always found it funny that so many people think this is the end all secret to victory with graphite only rules. We are allowed to groove but limited to graphite and have never found any advantage at all.

On lubrication. I would once again be liberal. Why even create the opportunity for someone to suspect cheating with oil? I don't believe oil is an advantage when you are on very dirty BSA tracks. Heck we played around with it years ago and I could never make it work. Limiting to graphite does not level the playing field and only creates an opportunity for suspected cheating.

All the other things, bushings, wheel tread shapes, mercury, the standard things should all not be allowed IMHO.

The primary goal with the rules should be to have as many scouts and partner go home feeling that it was a fair race. It is simple as that. I only have our BSA (Pack/District) world and over the last 13 years I have seen it going further and further in the wrong direction. The overall unhappiness how the race is run is definitively getting louder and louder each year and it is clearly being driven by the yearly changes in the rules. It is not our personal unhappiness but rather the overall tone at the race. This bothers me because I very much enjoy PWD and would like it to be a positive experience for as many of the teams as possible.

Yes the obvious point is that what have I done personally to help the situation and the truth is very little. Maybe an excuse but I did not want to be involved with rules and such while my kids were still racing.

[FatSebastian]

I don't believe the vendors sell prepped wheels with the step left alone. So a sneaky way to limit vendor wheels and a rule that can clearly be enforced.

MaxV's "lightly lathed" #4090 wheels already appear to leave the step intact (and it would be easy enough for vendors to eventually leave the stepped hub in place as "market forces" dictate).

[PWD]

I don't believe the MaxV wheels have had the bore reamed. I took what MaxV/DerbyWorx did with the 4090 was minimal and possible for a scout to do themselves. But I honestly don't know the details of what is done to these wheels.

I believe that a well prepared car with wheels that are picked carefully but right out of the box can beat a car with prepped wheels that have not been lightened. But I must admit that we have always done our wheels on the lathe and almost all our experience has been with the old wheels.

[Derby Evolution]

There are vendors out there that sell wheels with the step left in, I am one of them. There are also vendors out there that will prep those wheels, I am not one of them. Many of the top league racers do not ream their bores. The wheels can be purchased in just about any configuration from multiple vendors with or without prep.

[FatSebastian]

I don't believe the MaxV wheels have had the bore reamed.

Your comments spoke of "removing the step." I did not notice explicit mention of reaming the bore (unless "prepped" implies "reamed bore").

[resullivan]

Besides the debate of whether or not matched wheels help, what is the difference in buying 20 kits from the scout store and buying a matched set from a 3rd party?