Testing for the presence of oil

[ScoutAndDadTeam]

Just for the sake of discussion....

Many of you have asked for a way to detect for the presence of oil. This should do the trick. It is a micro-moisture meter. It can measure 0-2 micro-liters of a fluid. You take a sample using a very small and very absorbent paper strip and place it into the machine. If a dry strip was put into the jaws of the device it would measure zero. Any moisture picked up would give you a higher reading. This obviously was not designed for detecting oil on a pinewood derby car but it should work.

Would I use this machine to detect for the presence of oil? No! Absolutely not!! But if you are willing to go beyond the extreme into the world of relentless pursuit of oil detection on a PWD car this might to the trick.

The paper strips are interesting. They would be the correct size to slip between the wheel and axle and you can visually see fluid on them when you use them.

http://www.oraflow.com/oracat1.htm

Forgot to say I'm not affiliated with this company in any way

[festiva91]

You could always try a match to check for oil. The oil will easily combust and graphite won't. Simple solution, disqualify the kids whose cars catch on fire. just kidding.

[Teeeman]

Has anybody tried either just asking each person (adult preferred) who checks in a car what the lubricant is?

Or has anybody tried having race participants (adult preferred again) sign a disclaimer stating they have used only dry lubricants?

-Terry

[Mike Doyle]

Our Pack and District only allow dry lubes so we use graphite, with that said I think if oil is visibly undetectable, then it should be allowed.

The "no oil" rule was written to protect the track and other cars from excess dripping oil. If it takes scientific instruments to detect it then its obvious it isn't excessive

There are Packs that don't allow any lube of any kind, a co-worker's son in the Southeast belongs to such a Pack. Undetectable oil usage is a bigger issue there (cheating) since non-compliance is difficult to test for.

Clearly its a rule that should be modified to bring it back into alignment with current vendor offerings.

[GimpyPaw]

There is still one problem with the use of oil for general use. For us, we who read all these threads, test different products, drool over the WIRL/PWDR/et. al vids and pics, and go to bed thinking about pinecars, the use of oil / specialty lubes seems obvious.

But concider the average father/son combo, the ones who haven't EVER heard of NyOil, Krytox, or even understand how they should be applied. You make a rule change to allow "oil or liquid lubes" and your going to see WD-40 dripping from the wheel bores every bit as bad as you now see graphite falling like black snow from the underside of cars.

Yes, you can make it "clear" that cars which are shedding excess oil will not be allowed, but then again, it seems we've been discussing a lot of issues with lathed 1g wheels in races where the rules are clear that they aren't allowed either.

Just a thought from a perspective outside the inner pinecar circle.

[OneHour]

... has anyone actually seen the dripping wet lube, be it WD40 or Ny-Oil or ...? Even if check-in / racing were on the same day, unless relubing is allowed, the dripping oil effect would not happen because most of the time the cars are sitting there for 1-3 hours before race time. It is time enough to have any dripping effect to be completed and chances are it is pretty obvious for racing officials to catch it and have racer to clean the car/mess.

Wet lube would give the car the advantage if applied correctly and everything else is perfect (alignment, CM, etc.). If all else is not perfect, then the wet lubed car will lose to perfectly aligned, dry lubed car!

If you built into the rules, tips, workshops, etc., the "how to's" of lubing, then chances of dripping oil/wet lube is 0 to none (that goes for graphite as well). So the bottom line is, why limit when these are available for all to use?

I can see that lightened wheels or completely made cars are not readily available for all racers. Banning these would make more sense.

-L

[SlartyBartFast]

Yes, you can make it "clear" that cars which are shedding excess oil will not be allowed, but then again, it seems we've been discussing a lot of issues with lathed 1g wheels in races where the rules are clear that they aren't allowed either.

First, there's no need to single out oil in the rules. You could perhaps even cover the issue of excess lubricant without even specifically mentioning lubricant.
From the WOTAMALO DISTRICT PINEWOOD DERBY RULES:

T-9. Lubricants: Lubricants must be dry at the time of inspection and racing."

And the inspection:

Have the Cub Scout hold the car upside down for viewing.
Look at the underside in the vicinity of the wheels.
1. Is there any non-dry contamination apparent?
Yes The contaminant must be removed, and the wheel tread and sidewall
area cleaned effectively before proceeding with further inspection.
Look at the sides of the wheels.
2. Is there anything dripping down the side of the wheel or oozing out from the
Yes The lubricant must be removed, and the wheel tread and sidewall area
cleaned effectively before proceeding with further inspection.

All I might add/change is a "transferable substance" clause, a simple wipe with a cloth, and a "bump/drop" test over a clean piece of paper to test for excess.

[Stan Pope]

All I might add is change add a "transferable substance" clause, a simple wipe with a cloth, and a "bump/drop" test over a clean piece of paper to test for excess.

Excellent suggestion! I'll pose that in the next Wotamalo District PWD Rules update!

[ScoutAndDadTeam]

I kind of like the idea of having a signature line on the rules for both the scout and adult partner to sign saying that the read the rules and followed the rules to the best of their ability. You could also have a place for each of the inspectors to initial as the car is going along the inspection line. Just pass out the forms at the beginning of PWD season and have them bring it with them.

You would still have some parents trying to get around the rules but at least you make them more aware.

[RMoose]

We have never had a rule restricting the type of lubrication to be used, and we have had a lot of different ones tried over the years. I have never had any problems with dripping lubes on the track. I do have a gray scale that used to be white

I honestly haven't seen much difference in performance between properly applied graphite and the others. This year's overall winner used graphite, a couple of year's back the winner used silicone spray from Wal-mart. I do know the graphite for us has caused more of a mess than any of the others, including the "top secret perfect lube" someone got from a friend and was going to use this year!

Graphite is cheap and works well. To me that would be the only reason to restrict lubes to graphite only. Of course, if you have workshops it would be easy to make other lubes available then with the proper application instructions and let everyone experiment! Might be a good incentive to come to the workshop if you can pick up the "perfect lube" there!

[GimpyPaw]

Don't misunderstand me. I prefer Krytox myself, but I have seen some "wet" lubes on the track (like the one father/son who thought that packing the bores tight with axle grease would create some sort of "tight bore" when all it did was slowly ooze out). We've all seen fathers shooting graphite into the bore before they hand the car over for inspection, and I'm simply expressing a concern that some packs / track owners might have about allowing alternative lubricants.

That idea about a simple drop over clean paper is pure gold, btw. A simple test that anybody can perform with a simple pass/fail boundry. Definately will suggest that to our scout master.

[Mr. Slick]

Reality check. . . With about 1,000 cars again this year, I have not seen a single one that had a "transferable substance" from the car to the track EXCEPT the graphite and some decorative parts/weights that aren't securely fastened.

The difference between top end graphite and Nyoil II has pretty much been eliminated* -- without even taking into count the need to use Nyoil correctly.

I have to ask, WHY are we looking for a method of detecting oils? From everything I have seen at the youth built level of competition there are more important things than the few hundredths of a second one MIGHT gain from the use of non-graphite lube.

Maybe instead of looking for something to DQ the top of the pack we should use a minute at the inspection table to do a real quick alignment check and see if we can HELP some of the boys. . . . just an out of the box thought.

*Refer to : http://www.maximum-velocity.com/nyoil.gif

[SlartyBartFast]

Maybe instead of looking for something to DQ the top of the pack we should use a minute at the inspection table to do a real quick alignment check and see if we can HELP some of the boys. . . . just an out of the box thought.

A good derby organisation has spent many many hours BEFORE derby day to identify those that need help and offer them that help.

Inspection and check-in time is too late to accomplish much to help the bottom of the pack.

Besides, ensuring that all competitors follow the established rules is the BEST way you can help the boys. Ensuring that competition is fair and equal.

Do you believe that catching athletes that use steroids is a waste of time punishing the elite? Or, do you belive that catching the drug users ensures fairness of competition for all those that give it their best effort and remain clean?

[Mr. Slick]

IMHO, the analogy with athletes is weak at best. The athlete is out to win and there are highly accurate tests to use to enforce the rules. The tests needed to accurately detect a thin film lubricant 100% of the time are beyond the budgets of most of the races I've ever seen. The purpose of the Pinewood Derby in Cub Scouts is not to win but rather to build memories, develop relationships, learn new skills, etc.

I do DQ people who break the rules. I also make sure that the rules have meaning and are enforceable as best as possible. My tracks are starting to look gray instead of the shiny silver when they were new.

This season I have had a few serious discussions with parents who were running the 1g wheels at the pack level and I explained that when the cars show up at District they would be DQ'd if they still used those wheels, unless they were going to race in the Open Division.

Ensuring that everyone plays by the same rules is A WAY to help the kids.

In order to ensure that competition is "fair and equal" requires that all of the participants have access to the same training, tools, and assistance. Since we put on workshops for those who can make them, everyone should be allowed to learn the basics of what is taught there, even if at the last minute.

As far as not being able to help with a minute of assistance, you are wrong. We run a "practice" race where every car goes down once to train the volunteers. While the volunteers are doing this we watch for cars that are really slow - behind the group by 4 feet or more. When we spot a car that needs some help we inspect it to see if there is something rubbing or if there is a quick fix that would help the car be closer to the group. Virtually every car can be tweaked in a minute to be in the group. It has never been a concern with boys or parents since it is explained ahead of time and the "tweaking" will not make a really slow car into a winner.

I just did a Girl Scout race with 110 cars. At check in I put up an single lane section of track with a 1" slope for the 93" of run. The girls could let the cars roll down the track to see if they ran well. Most of the cars that had trouble were only lacking lube. Otherwise when a girl had trouble getting her car to roll the entire length I would be called over and I would investigate and explain what I thought should/could be done. Most of the adjustments took less then 30 seconds. Test run to see which way it turns, determine dominant front wheel, adjust dominant front wheel for a better alignment. For the actual races there were no embarrassingly slow cars so I would call that competition very "Fair and Equal"

We get lots of compliments on having the check-in process be not just a "Judgment" but rather a final aid to having a good race for those who needed it.

[SlartyBartFast]

IMHO, the analogy with athletes is weak at best.

How so? Both are cases where the top performers will be comprised of those that did their absolute best and stayed within the rules and those that have chosen to go outside the rules to gain a perceived advantage.

The tests needed to accurately detect a thin film lubricant 100% of the time are beyond the budgets of most of the races I've ever seen.

Absolutely. I think the suggestion that such tests be developed is very much tongue-in-cheek. On the other hand, the obsessive investigation on how to enforce rules to the best accuracy possible serves a valuable purpose. It identifies whether the rule is enforceable (either technically, or budgetary wise), and opens discussion to how best communicate and enforce the rule.
For the case of liquid lubricants, if in discussing the rule the conclusion that to detect properly applied lubricant requires a huge budget and specialised equipment we can then discuss what the intent of the is and how to better express that intent.
If the intent is to stop track fouling, no need to even mention types of lubricant. Just do the drop test and rub with a clean cloth. If any substance transfers, lubricant is not acceptably applied.
If the intent is to stop “unfair” advantage, the issue might be stickier. But if the only way to test for “illegal” lubricants is the absence of visible graphite, then the rule should probably be that graphite MUST be used. Indeed, if the check-in volunteers are lubing slow/unlubricated cars with
graphite perhaps the rule should simply be NO lubrication until lubricated by track officials.

The purpose of the Pinewood Derby in Cub Scouts is not to win but rather to build memories, develop relationships, learn new skills, etc.

And you could do that by building bird houses. No matter how you dress up the event, help the disadvantaged, or limit technology and equipment to even the playing field, the event is a RACE. First across the finish line WINS.
No matter how much you coddle, protect, encourage the participants there will be wins and losses.
Even in the case of the track promoter going on about the joy of the 53rd place boy’s excitement in winning their last race against the 54th place boy. Did anyone consider the 54th place boy? Perhaps they were lucky and won a race or two. If they are mentally strong the last loss (or losses) might not cloud their few (or singular) win earlier in the day. But they might as easily have spent the entire day losing.
Personally I think an entire day of losing, no matter how closely matched, has a more devastating effect than being eliminated early but knowing you gave it your best. Then, the participant is free to enjoy the competition and event instead of being subjected by the stress of racing and prospect of losing till the bitter end.

I do DQ people who break the rules. I also make sure that the rules have meaning and are enforceable as best as possible. My tracks are starting to look gray instead of the shiny silver when they were new.

Good for you. So why the contrarian stance in this thread? Each thing in its place. In this thread, we’re discussing rules, their enforceability, and the inspection process. The situation isn’t either/or.
You can have an efficient inspection process, clear rules, and strict enforcement while at the same time helping the stragglers and promoting the spirit of competition.

This season I have had a few serious discussions with parents who were running the 1g wheels at the pack level and I explained that when the cars show up at District they would be DQ'd if they still used those wheels, unless they were going to race in the Open Division.

Are those wheels allowed by your rules? Because if they aren’t I don’t understand why you allow them to race. If it’s about being fair and the enjoyment of the kids, hold open class races. If the kid is disappointed for not racing with their friends, allow the friends to race in open class as well. But at some point, disappointment is what gives the lesson to follow the rules and play fair. It will also be the guilt of the parent to make sure the next time they make sure their kid can participate fully.
If the only consequences are always a polite warning, why will they ever change? What lessons will they learn? Aren’t some of those ife lessons part of the mission of the organisations that run PWDs?

Ensuring that everyone plays by the same rules is A WAY to help the kids.

And at the INSPECTION stage of check-in, that’s what we’re doing. Or at least the part of the inspection process that’s being discussed here.
Inspecting for rules violations doesn’t mean you can’t also inspect for minimum performance. A minimum performance down a test track and being directed to a pit crew is an excellent idea.

In order to ensure that competition is "fair and equal" requires that all of the participants have access to the same training, tools, and assistance. Since we put on workshops for those who can make them, everyone should be allowed to learn the basics of what is taught there, even if at the last minute.

But if they don’t learn, or choose not to learn, then the organisers responsibility has reached its limit.
And as exemplary as your process seems, it’s not exactly last minute. You need to have the time and resources available.

We get lots of compliments on having the check-in process be not just a "Judgment" but rather a final aid to having a good race for those who needed it.

But, part of that process is judgment. If it isn’t then you could save time and energy by just making sure the cars can make it down the track and then allowing the participants free use of the track for a given period.