A question of race integrity

[pack529holycross]

I have a question regarding a situation that has arisen through the event yesterday, and need some opinions on how to address it.


There were two cars that , combined, DNF'ed on 22 of 24 runs. Clearly these were cars that were having issues. My question is.. if you see cars that seriously cannot make the finish line - do we have an obligation as race organizers to do anything to help?

I am wrestling with the balance betwen fair competition and creating an environment of failure witnessed by a child.

GIVEN - I know that the dads need to take advantage of the resources available to make a BASIC car

GIVEN - I know that the dads are aware that they can ask for help

GIVEN - I know that the dads know they can come to practice

Given all of these assumptions, should we as race organizers make a greater effort ON RACE DAY to insure that at a minimum, every car can at least get to the finish line?

One obvious side-effect of the situation is that the timer will not show times until 9.9999 is reached on all DNF lanes. I propose that the software ( if not already ) would all a manual "finish" to the heat. If by closing the starting gate, the software will display the times and the DNF's, then thats an easy procedural change we can make. If not, I suggest a DNF button to reduce the delay.

The other side effect is the reaction of children pointing at a car that didn't finish. Even in the most WELL behaved group, you are still going to sense the uncomfortableness of the situation.

The ONLY race day "allowance" I could consider is to pre-run any cars that appear to be having issues ( no graphite, no apparent wheel prep, etc ), and allow the race crew to OBSERVE and ADVISE the parent and scout how to potentially fix any issues that are preventing the car from going down the track. The parent and scout would still need to be the ones doing the work, and would have to go back through re-inspection.

These "trial runs" could be for the purpose of insuring that wheels are securely attached, parts won't fly off, and generally see that the car is able to stay in the lane and get to the finish line.

opinions?

Nicholas

[Stan Pope]

I have no qualms with the idea of a "trial run" just before pack race inspection. The pack races are a "competition", true, but they are also a "learning experience." More is learned if a trial run results in a correction before the "real races."

There will still be some number of folks who eschew the workshops and the "Test and Tune" nights and who arrive for inspection at the last minute. Even then, a "trial run" may save later embarrassment. "Withdraw before competition" is acceptable, especially if it goes along with an reminder to use the resources you make available for pre-raceday testing.

Your ostensible reasons for a trial run make sense and adequately cover the real mission ... get 'em to the finish line.

I would have an experienced and as unbiased-as-possible person to watch the run and point out things that should be done to get the car to finish.

[Darin McGrew]

There were two cars that , combined, DNF'ed on 22 of 24 runs. Clearly these were cars that were having issues.

I hate it when that happens.

My question is.. if you see cars that seriously cannot make the finish line - do we have an obligation as race organizers to do anything to help?

Of course, the ideal time to address this is before the weigh-in, when there is still time to fix it. But even with three Saturday morning workshops and a few Wednesday evening workshops (during our regular weekly meetings), we get an occasional DNF. And occasionally, part of a car breaks during a race.

We make a point of having extra leaders around during the derby, and a repair station with CA glue, hot glue, lubricant, etc. An experienced leader will try to help, and our MC is prepared to cover breaks in the action (for car repairs, technical problems, etc.).

I'm not worried about skewing the results, because there isn't much chance that such cars will finish well enough in their remaining races to affect the top places that receive awards. At this point, you just want the car to cross the finish line for its remaining races.

But usually, there isn't much that can be done at that point to help cars that DNF.

I've heard of groups setting up the track a few days before their weigh-in, with no racing allowed. The track is available only for running individual cars down the track, to make sure there aren't any surprise problems. At this point, there is still time to fix a car that doesn't reach the finish line. But you still need to get people to show up.

We have a section of track available at our later workshops, and at our weigh-in. Those building unusual designs can test whether they fit the track. And we prop up one end slightly, so those who have completed their cars can test whether they're rolling well. IME, the cars that DNF are the cars that don't roll well on a slightly inclined track. We also have leaders specifically checking for this on the night of our weigh-in.

[gpraceman]

If a car doesn't finish, the race crew should try its best to help the racer get it to finish.

In my experience, it is usually one of two reason that a car doesn't finish.
1) The car has not been lubed.
2) The car is seriously under weight.

Both scenarios can be rectified to get the car to finish. Lube should be available in the pit area and there should be some washers, scrap weights, or anything else that can be used as weight. There should also be a glue gun available to adhere them.

Though, a good check-in inspection should catch these problems. If not evident that the car has been lubed, then ask the racer (better yet the parent) if it was lubed. If not, send them back to the pit area. If the car is under 4.7 ounces, be insistant that they add weight. Doing test runs of the cars individually down the track, with no timing, is also very helpful to identify these cars.

If it is an issue of really bad wheels and/or axles, have some spares handy and do a swap out.

Some cars have been cut or sanded to the point that the body has been narrowed so the wheels just rub against the guide strip all the way down. Those are the ones that it may not be possible to get the car to finish.

There is nothing worse than seeing a car not finish any of its heats (especially for the racer) so all that can be done to get it to finish, should be done.

As far as GPRM is concerned with a DNF, you can hit the Escape key on the computer to get the software to tell the timer that the race is over and to send the results (assuming the timer supports that feature). With Fast Track timers using the mechanical start switch, you can simply reset the start gate to do the same thing. Any car that hadn't finished will get the max time.

[dna1990]

The large size of our pack has always made a 'test night' something too big to tackle.

But I like the idea of having a track section ~8', with a very small incline - to do some basic DNF prevention...

I am passing this idea along to my group, thanks.


We too want everyone to pass inspection and make it pass the finish line, and still have a healthy sense of competition, winners, and losers.

As said above, at check-in:

• Any car under 4.5oz is strongly encouraged to add weight in the pit area
• Our sizing box has a track strip at the bottom to check for clearance (height and width)
• All 4 wheels are spun
• We add graphite to all cars (unless racer requests not to relube)
• A car with an unusual build, material, or shape - can subjectively get an additional check for car-to-car clearance, clearance under the timer, general compatibility. For instance, we had a 'furry' mouse that we asked to be 'trimmed', so shedding would not cause any interference, etc.

[ohiofitter]

Maybe give the car another inspection to make sure all the wheel are moving....I'm not saying let the make major adjustments to the whel but make sure there just not push up against the body and the nail head...........or they have not gotten glued to the nail..........if this was the case bring it to the attention of the parent of the mishaps....Or just ask the crowd to let them do a little tinkering to help the racers out

[PWD_addict]

As said above, at check-in:

• Any car under 4.5oz is strongly encouraged to add weight in the pit area
• Our sizing box has a track strip at the bottom to check for clearance (height and width)
• All 4 wheels are spun
• We add graphite to all cars (unless racer requests not to relube)
• A car with an unusual build, material, or shape - can subjectively get an additional check for car-to-car clearance, clearance under the timer, general compatibility. For instance, we had a 'furry' mouse that we asked to be 'trimmed', so shedding would not cause any interference, etc.

Good call. That's what we are doing this year (this Saturday). We will have a station to check and add weight. We had a donation of flat adhesive-backed car wheel weights that we will have available. Each section is marked with the weight (1/4, 1/2, 3/4, etc) so it should be easy to get it right. Next station will be to check that all four wheels turn freely AND that the car has been lubed. We will teach the boys to lube the car and show them how to spin the wheels for a little break-in. Then, we'll have the regular check-in/inspection station.
If on race day, a car doesn't finish a couple of races, we will take it to the pit area and figure out why and help it out. Our previous Cubmaster usually takes it to a table, turns his back and raps a hammer loudly on the table to make it look like he's fixing it. The kids get a kick out of that. If we believe that fixing the car will alter the results of the races, we won't do it. In reality, if a car is going to DNF due to performance (as opposed to breakage), it is not likely to run Top 3 if we fix it enough to get it across the line.

Last year, we had a wheel that was glued to an axle. We didn't have rigorous registration inspection like we should have.

[Mr. Slick]

When I go and help run races I STRONGLY encourage using the entire fleet of cars as a "training" run for the volunteer helpers. Basically we run the cars down the track 1-6, 7-12,13-18, ... until all the cars have gone down the track. I explain that this is for the training of the volunteers to the audience. This gives the starter some practice staging the cars and operating the start line. . . things like not resetting before all of the cars finish. I also take the time to discuss the 30 seconds of racing time verses the hours, days, weeks of building the cars and for the kids and parents to reflect on which they think is more important.

I then state that if there are any cars that have a hard time getting to the end of the track, I will take a quick look to see if we can get it going better. 90% of the time it is a simple matter of blowing out the white Teflon and applying some good graphite. Rarely have I had to get out the pro-body tool and drill new holes so that the wheels can be reattached to the body. Sometimes a quick alignment to be closer to a rail rider does all that is needed.

[gpraceman]

The large size of our pack has always made a 'test night' something too big to tackle.

What about doing your check-in the night before the race? Then part of the check-in process is a test run or two down the track.

That makes for much less stress the next day. The track is already setup and the cars are all checked in. Just power everything up, do a quick test of the computer and timer, and rock and roll.

For our pack, the rule for the scouts was that if you didn't check-in the night before, their car would race in the open division. We didn't have any problem of late check-ins on race day.

With a large number of racers, that sure makes more sense then to try to check-in all of those cars the same day as the race (as invariably the check-in process takes longer than you'd like). That makes for a longer and more stressful day for everyone.

[tmbnorm]

We had our Pack Pinewood derby today.
25 boys and every car made it down the track OK.

Were all of the cars competative? No. There were maybe only 4-5 cars that had a chance of winning a trophy.
I would help any car that can not get down the track to at least make it there. (graphite or moving weights).

My wife has suggested and I have considered a build session to help others learn some of the speed tips. Thatould only make more work for an already over worked den leader (me). The same people who do the minimum to get by will still do the mininum to get by. Now they will just sit back and watch me help their child.

Maybe I am jaded, but people do what is important to them. My son is not a great athlete. His baseball teams always face an uphill battle. The dad's of the best athletes get together and make sure that their son's are on the best team. Sports is important to them and they put forth the effort for that. I guess the derby is not that important to them.
Many of the parents throw something together the week of the Pinewood derby.

My son and I did all the research and spent the time building our cars. We started 6 weeks before the derby to make sure we are not rushed.
This is our 4th derby and it was the best car by far. This was the 1st time my son won the Pack Derby.


Sorry for the rant... I want to help others do well, but I know it would turn into something else that I am expected to do.

Any thoughts?

[Nitro Dan]

Sorry for the rant... I want to help others do well, but I know it would turn into something else that I am expected to do.

I know where you are coming from. Without assistance from others there is no way one man can do it alone. Our answer was to create a separate committee just for the Pinewood Derby that consisted of eight chairs. People volunteer for those chairs each September. If the chairs aren't filled, the derby does not go down. When the Pack hears that, those "derby dads" crawl out of the wood work and volunteer. The committee is also responsible for holding a PWD workshop as well. It may be tough at first, but after a few years the regulars start to get the hang of it and everything runs smooth after that. They even train their own replacements when it comes time to move on.

-Nitro Dan

[Teeeman]

A boy in our Den 2 years ago had a DNF car.
No weight!

I had told everybody repeatedly in the Den all the basics but this dad just didn't get it.

Post race:
Kid was publicly given a hard time by one of our leaders, jokingly, but it was not funny to the Cub (reference the tears on his cheeks if you want proof).

However, mood lightened some when the folks running the race asked to borrow the car (a boat) and everyone within 5 feet contributed their pocket change which was placed loosely in the boat... then it made the finish line.



Next year this family came to a workshop as Dad was not going to see the same thing happen.

Both his Cubs made it to District last year.

Both boys came up and gave me hug after the Pack race for having a workshop (I gave them some of my precious Tungsten rod chip stash I got from a co-worker for free to help in weighting their cars, hahahah!).

Never expected that... one of the best moments of Scouting I've ever had that didn't involve my own son.



-Terry