Graphite Longevity

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10range
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Graphite Longevity

Post by 10range » Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:59 pm

I had a chance to make some test runs this weekend and found something I thought was interesting. For my combination, I found that the Max-V-Lube graphite was the fastest but it appeared to slow down quickly. Along side the Max-V I was also testing Nyoil II. While the Nyoil lasted longer, it was never as quick as the Max-V. The fastest run I had with Nyoil on a 35' BestTrack was 2.62. This would run consistent times for 10-15 runs. My best run with the Max-V was 2.56 but it was only quick for about 5 runs. After that it would slow down to the 2.60-2.63 range for the next 10 or so runs. The axles are grooved, one set was just polished and the second set was coated with a graphite-like coating. The coated set was faster. Wheels and axles are Awana.

I am wondering if anyone else has seen this slow down over such a short period of time?



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Re: Graphite Longevity

Post by 10range » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:03 pm

Just a bit more info, last year was the first time this track was raced on and the fastest run during that race was 2.62 so I am confident that the Nyoil is fast, just not quite as fast as the Max-V.



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Re: Graphite Longevity

Post by Teeeman » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:55 pm

IF you are at liberty to use liquid lube, you should attempt a combo of Nyoil and Graphite.

Doc Jobe shows data that shows promise with the "taboo" mixing of dry and wet.

Since you are doing a scientific test and not just claiming "because I know" this would be very interesting as this topic has been run around the block before on here without consensus.


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sporty
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Re: Graphite Longevity

Post by sporty » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:07 pm

Did you test any other lubes ?

I have tested the following-

hodges
max-v
hobb-e-lube

Sporty



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Re: Graphite Longevity

Post by hwsjr » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:18 pm

What did your tests show lasts the longest among the dry? Our Pack uses a double elimination format in which you must win on both lanes gain a victory in each head to head match. Minimum number of trips down the track to win the whole thing is 14. Could take a few more depending on a few factors. With this in mind, long lasting is important with our format.



10range
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Re: Graphite Longevity

Post by 10range » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:28 pm

I did not have a chance to test any other lubes. I also did not test the mix of a dry and wet lube. I may have a chance after our race this weekend to do that.

An interesting note. I built the spin testing fixture that Stan had described and during that testing, the longest spin times were with the Nyoil by a considerable amount of time (almost 20% longer spins than graphite).

For the on track tests, the oil was applied in the same manner as for the spin tests so I feel confident that the slower times with oil on the track are not from over application of the Nyoil although I would love to have Krytox to test also.

The thing that I find interesting is that in looking at Maximum Velocities' test data, their combination seems to indicate that Max-v is faster than Nyoil. While they do not directly compare the two, their test charts show that Nyoil and Tube-o-lube are very close and their chart comparing Tube-o-lube and Max-V indicate the Max-V to be faster. If I am reading everything correctly, it looks like they also came to the conclusion that Mav-V is faster than Nyoil.



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Stan Pope
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Re: Graphite Longevity

Post by Stan Pope » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:39 pm

Nice work!

The Nyoil II result suggests there might be too much of it applied. If you can see it, there is probably too much. If you get more than a very thin film, the surface tension between axle, oil, and bore tangle things up enough to prevent full value. On the other hand, it last long enough that you should not have to lubricate again for a year (if you can keep it clean) which is good, because most folks who use it say that it can not be properly applied without separating the axle and wheel!

So, to help us interpret your interesting results, please tell details of the lubrication process used for each case.

Some guys suggested that applying MaxV's very fine graphite over a coating of coarser graphite was beneficial. I think Teeeman is the one with the details on that.


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Re: Graphite Longevity

Post by 10range » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:32 pm

For the Nyoil:
I would place two drops on the axle, wiping it around with my finger, then wipe the axle with a cloth until there was a dry film left on the axle.

For the Max-V:
Puff graphite on the axle, slide the wheel on the axle, holding axle with wheel facing down, puff graphite on inner hub, spin wheel, hold axle in horizontal position and tap excess graphite off.

Both of these lube methods are the same that I used with the spin tests.

If time allows, I will try to do more testing with both the oil and graphite. A couple of things that I feel impacted the longevity of the graphite on the car was the fact that there is one wide groove in the axle and the wheels are canted at 2 degrees. I am guessing that with the Max-V being so fine, and my combination, it may have worn the powder off more quickly.

The other unknown is the axle coating. To my knowledge, this particular coating has not been used on axles before.



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Stan Pope
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Re: Graphite Longevity

Post by Stan Pope » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:03 am

Good detail!

It sounds like you should be okay with the Nyoil II application. Might need to go over it again with a clean contaminant-free wipe once or twice more to get it to peak performance.

The Nyoil probably showed very poorly in spin tests ... that is the report, anyway ... unless they are made "under load."

The groove means that there is a smaller area of contact, which means that the psi between the bore and axle is greater because the same force is distributed over a smaller area. This probably increases the wear rate for the graphite and probably accounts for part of your longevity issues. Past reports here mostly favor grooves for oil and no grooves for graphite, but check out what the best builders say.


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Re: Graphite Longevity

Post by 10range » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:41 am

The Nyoil probably showed very poorly in spin tests ... that is the report, anyway ... unless they are made "under load."
For my spin tests, the Nyoil was significantly better than the graphite. It averaged 20% longer spin times. The "load" I used was a ring that when coupled with the wheel weighed just under 2 oz total.

If I have time, I may try to get some Krytox and test that also. I would like to ensure that the application process is not affecting the results.



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Stan Pope
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Re: Graphite Longevity

Post by Stan Pope » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:40 am

10range wrote:
The Nyoil probably showed very poorly in spin tests ... that is the report, anyway ... unless they are made "under load."
For my spin tests, the Nyoil was significantly better than the graphite. It averaged 20% longer spin times. The "load" I used was a ring that when coupled with the wheel weighed just under 2 oz total.
Excellent! That should be definitive! That is a "loaded spin test!"

Only two things (that I can think of) keep that nyoil lubed car from whipping the graphite:
1. misalignment or
2. static friction (from oil surface tension).

Surface tension would cause the car to get a slower start off the line. I read one posting on this board that suggests this as the "end game" difference between the two lubes. The source should know whereof he spoke. (I have not run the tests, so I can't tell vouch for his knowledge.)


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Re: Graphite Longevity

Post by 10range » Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:53 pm

While the alignment may not be perfect it was the same for all of the tests. I used the same axles, wheels and cars for the test. The rear wheels on the car are drilled at an angle and straight axles are used. The left front is bent and adjusted to steer.

My concern was that I did not have enough Nyoil left on the axle after I wiped them down.



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Stan Pope
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Re: Graphite Longevity

Post by Stan Pope » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:06 am

10range wrote:My concern was that I did not have enough Nyoil left on the axle after I wiped them down.
I've never heard of that happening! Anybody heard of it???

None-the-less, except for starting with two drops of oil and risking contamination from skin oils, it sounds like you are following the prescribed protocol for application. (The rule of thumb there is "if it looks like you have lubed 'em with oil, you got way too much on 'em!")

So, that seems to add weight to the validity of your comparison!


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Re: Graphite Longevity

Post by 10range » Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:23 am

One variable I have been thinking about is the effects of temperature on the Nyoil. The tests were conducted in a room that was 68 degrees give or take a degree. What is the safe temperature range for Nyiol to operate effectively at?



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Re: Graphite Longevity

Post by sporty » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:17 am

While you are doing a good controlled test.

Please test the following.

hodges and hobb-e-lube.


Sporty



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