Hub coning?

[BSAdadGriffindork]

My rules allow “ Wheel treatment (hub and tread smoothing and polishing) may not result in substantial removal of mass nor in
reducing the tread (track contact) width from the original kit wheels.”

Do y’all think this means I’m allowed to cone my hubs? And is that something worth doing on the current BSA wheeels? Current car is a rail rider with cambered wheels/axle

Are reaming tools worth doing as well? Saw some tools at hobby lobby and thought about doing it. thanks!

[whodathunkit]

Today’s BSA wheels have coned inner hubs.
The outer hub has a small step ring that can be remove.
If that’s the hub you’re asking about.

Reaming the bore..
To enlarge them is not a good idea unless the bore is too small for the axle.


The inner tread has a small lip you can fell by running a finger nail over.. it can be removed.
Try to find the best true to round wheels with a run out gauge.
As far as polish .. hubs , tread , bore, inner wheel ring..
Can all be smoothed and polished.

[BSAdadGriffindork]

Today’s BSA wheels have coned inner hubs.
The outer hub has a small step ring that can be remove.
If that’s the hub you’re asking about.

Reaming the bore..
To enlarge them is not a good idea unless the bore is too small for the axle.


The inner tread has a small lip you can fell by running a finger nail over.. it can be removed.
Try to find the best true to round wheels with a run out gauge.
As far as polish .. hubs , tread , bore, inner wheel ring..
Can all be smoothed and polished.

Thank you

Is there a recommended tool or technique to polish the hubs? I’ve got some q-tip looking things for the bore that I was planning to use.

[FatSebastian]

And is that something worth doing on the current BSA wheels?

"Coning" means rounding the inner hub (the part that contacts the body), and current wheels are already coned, as Whoda said. Additional coning of the hubs is undesirable IMO, but polishing is okay as long you thoroughly clean away the polish, especially any that may get inside the bore.



Before 2009, the inner hubs of BSA wheels were not rounded, so coning was recommended then. Removing the inner step of the outer hub became a common practice instead, and Derby Worx makes a little hub-shaver tool for that, that rides on their original Pro-Hub tool.

[BSAdadGriffindork]

And is that something worth doing on the current BSA wheels?

"Coning" means rounding the inner hub (the part that contacts the body), and current wheels are already coned, as Whoda said. Additional coning of the hubs is undesirable IMO, but polishing is okay as long you thoroughly clean away the polish, especially any that may get inside the bore.





Before 2009, the inner hubs of BSA wheels were not rounded, so coning was recommended then. Removing the inner step of the outer hub became a common practice instead, and Derby Worx makes a little hub-shaver tool for that, that rides on their original Pro-Hub tool.

Thank you! Do you recommend burnishing the body where hub might make contact? Or is the effort not worth the reward?

Or making little access ports at the edge of the body above the axle to make it easier to put graphite in the hubs.

Been searching past posts for tips and tricks and those seemed promising.

[FatSebastian]

Do you recommend burnishing the body where hub might make contact? Or is the effort not worth the reward?

It depends on what you mean by "burnishing effort". Assuming that you are running graphite, rubbing a little graphite into the body around the hub contact area is easy to do, especially before putting on the wheels.

Some folks go one step further by first temporarily plugging the axle hole with a spare axle and applying one or more coats of CA (super) glue or fingernail polish in that area to harden the wood, and polish that out before rubbing graphite. It is sort of like having an built-in "washer" to ride on... others believe that adding glue or fingernail polish can potentially alter alignment and it is not worth the risk.

If you are rail riding, and your alignment is correct, then only DFW wheel is going to make consistent contact with the body, so that is where the most "burnishing effort" would be focused.

[BSAdadGriffindork]

Do you recommend burnishing the body where hub might make contact? Or is the effort not worth the reward?

It depends on what you mean by "burnishing effort". Assuming that you are running graphite, rubbing a little graphite into the body around the hub contact area is easy to do, especially before putting on the wheels.

Some folks go one step further by first temporarily plugging the axle hole with a spare axle and applying one or more coats of CA (super) glue or fingernail polish in that area to harden the wood, and polish that out before rubbing graphite. It is sort of like having an built-in "washer" to ride on... others believe that adding glue or fingernail polish can potentially alter alignment and it is not worth the risk.

If you are rail riding, and your alignment is correct, then only DFW wheel is going to make consistent contact with the body, so that is where the most "burnishing effort" would be focused.

Thanks again,

Speaking of alignment, if I’m running a straight axle rail rider… anyway to tune it? Looks like I’ll be able to do a few test runs before turning it in the night before the race.

I’ve plugged with toothpicks and re-drilled a couple time until it rolled a few inches left at 5 feet (first time the damn thing nearly did a circle) haha

[FatSebastian]

if I’m running a straight axle rail rider… anyway to tune it?

By "straight-axle" I assume that you mean that the axles aren't intentionally bent, which is against your rules. ("Straight-axle" could also imply that there is no noticeable camber.)

The correctly cambered rear axles should migrate away from the car while rolling forward and backward, and this can be tested on a flat surface without a track. Because no axle is perfectly straight, if you have the means to rotate the axles within their holes (a pair of special-purpose axle pliers, or a "K-House groove" slotted in the nail head into which a screwdriver can fit), then you can twist the axle to see if you can induce or optimize this migration if it doesn't happen already.



If you have the ability to perform limited track-tuning on the DFW, then I would run down the track once to see if the car wobbles. If it doesn't, then I'd be tempted to leave well enough alone. If it does wobble, then I'd rotate the axle 45 degrees and see if that improves things, then rotate another 45 degrees, and so on. If you are able to time the runs, you can iterate and bisect into an optimal twist location, but understand that every extra heat also puts wear-and-tear on your finished, lubricated car before check-in.

Also note that grabbing the axle head with just any ol' pliers is risky.

[BSAdadGriffindork]

if I’m running a straight axle rail rider… anyway to tune it?

By "straight-axle" I assume that you mean that the axles aren't intentionally bent, which is against your rules. ("Straight-axle" could also imply that there is no noticeable camber.)

The correctly cambered rear axles should migrate away from the car while rolling forward and backward, and this can be tested on a flat surface without a track. Because no axle is perfectly straight, if you have the means to rotate the axles within their holes (a pair of special-purpose axle pliers, or a "K-House groove" slotted in the nail head into which a screwdriver can fit), then you can twist the axle to see if you can induce or optimize this migration if it doesn't happen already.



If you have the ability to perform limited track-tuning on the DFW, then I would run down the track once to see if the car wobbles. If it doesn't, then I'd be tempted to leave well enough alone. If it does wobble, then I'd rotate the axle 45 degrees and see if that improves things, then rotate another 45 degrees, and so on. If you are able to time the runs, you can iterate and bisect into an optimal twist location, but understand that every extra heat also puts wear-and-tear on your finished, lubricated car before check-in.

Also note that grabbing the axle head with just any ol' pliers is risky.

Thank you so much!

[whodathunkit]

for a minute there I thought FS,
Was even going to throw in the sharpie pen for marking the axles
at the nail head in the 12:00 o clock position or at the axles natural bend.

For most this helps aid in the alignment process
For finding the sweet spot in the axle and how the wheels react.

[Vitamin K]

I've seen wheels that are coned on the inner and outer hubs and I have to admit they look like they'd probably help minimize contact. I don't think it would be easy to do with hand tools, though.

I know you can modify the Derbyworx hub tool to cone the outer hub as opposed to just removing the step, but it's a bit tricky, and when I tried it, my results weren't optimal.

[FatSebastian]

I've seen wheels that are coned on the inner and outer hubs .. but it's a bit tricky, and when I tried it, my results weren't optimal.

I think I've also seen beveling as part of the inner-step removal, but always figured that slightly tapering the underside of the nail head was an easier way to gain the same benefit if the step is removed flush (without any bevel)?

[Vitamin K]

I've seen wheels that are coned on the inner and outer hubs .. but it's a bit tricky, and when I tried it, my results weren't optimal.

I think I've also seen beveling as part of the inner-step removal, but always figured that slightly tapering the underside of the nail head was an easier way to gain the same benefit if the step is removed flush (without any bevel)?

That's quite possible! Though BSA nail heads are pretty thin. Some of the other kinds of axles (e.g. Awana) have meatier heads and would be easier to bevel, just from my POV.

[whodathunkit]

Is there a recommended tool or technique to polish the hubs? I’ve got some q-tip looking things for the bore that I was planning to use.

Tools Derbyworx wheel mandrel. corded or cordless drill.. or drill press.
Or if you need a different type of mandrel/ chuck to hold the wheel with out passing a screw threw the wheel bore.
https://www.turboderby.com/shop

You can use thing's like fluffy pipe cleaners, Q-tip steams, and Tamiya brand spears for polishing and waxing the wheel bores.
Q-tips, paper towels .. cut up T shirt rag's for hubs and treads and inner rim. Microfiber towels to clean / buff polish off axles .

image of a kit I made up for my son of items we use for the bores and hubs and treads.

I like using the Tamiya spears for polishing the wheel bores.. over using wired pipe cleaners or Q-tip shafts that can miss up a wheel bore if not used right.
You'll need to look at the item number as the come in different sizes and tip shapes .. image shows size that fits BSA wheel bores.
Item number 87106-260

There sizes and shapes:
https://www.tamiyausa.com/shop/finishin ... on-swab-7/

In the first image in a black package you'll see a Derbyworx wheel mandrel this is the tool i have to work with.
https://www.derbyworx.com/products/tool ... l-mandrel/
In the first stages of wheel prep we wash the wheels in warm soapy water and rinse the wheel and bores out in clean water and dry with compressed air blowing out the bores as well .
Next use a run out gauge to find the best wheels we can. Why do we wash the wheels first!
Dirt. dust. card board lent in the wheel bores from the boxed kits will destroy the bore if spun on a pin to the run out gauge tool.
Then we fix imperfections in the outer hub with the derbyworx pro hub shaver and use air to remove savings from the bores.
Move on using the mandrel and drill to fix the imperfections on the tread and inner wheel rim with sand papers.
clean and dry and blow out the wheels bores once more.. then re-check wheels on the run out gauge once more.. then re work the wheels as needed and clean once more.

Back to the mandrel and drill to spin the wheel.. to polish the inner rim and tread.. Q - tips, or paper towels , or a T- shirt rag can be used.
For the wheel tread we like using a wide pop cycle stick with polish on it.
Clean off polish and wash /dry wheel and bore before the last step of polishing the bores and hubs with out the mandrel.
We just hold the wheel in our hand and use a drill with a spear and polish for the wheel bore s.
Q-tips for the inner and outer hubs then clean off polish and wash and dry out wheel bore with air and check with looking glass.

Some will get more involved in there wheel prep process as far as keeping the wheels clean and free lent or polish in the bores before waxing the bores as well.
We also use a magnifying glass to check inside the wheel bores for trash and how the bore looks after polish.. good for looking at the axles as well for scratches.

For axles my son and I work them up to 3000 girt sand paper and then polish for graphite use. For oil lubes we try to get the axle as slick and shinny and as clean as we possibly can.
Anyway just a few items my son and I do and use for are wheel and axle prep.

For a wheel run out gauge idea. to check for the roundness of the wheel in relationship to the wheel bore.
FS has a topic on one.
https://www.derbytalk.com/viewtopic.php ... +out+gauge

[whodathunkit]

I've seen wheels that are coned on the inner and outer hubs and I have to admit they look like they'd probably help minimize contact. I don't think it would be easy to do with hand tools, though.

I know you can modify the Derbyworx hub tool to cone the outer hub as opposed to just removing the step, but it's a bit tricky, and when I tried it, my results weren't optimal.

Vk,

Derbyworx has a modification video on the pro hub shaver.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEWMKHv10Ac

Then like you I've seen a different modification to the Derbyworx pro hub shaver to cone the hub as well from a different vender.. I cant say on here.